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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
 Posted - 08/05/2007 : 21:54:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Ricky, you bring up an interesting point:
Is it possible to unintentionally lie?
If you claim that "lying" is simply stating that which is false then clearly no intent to deceive is necessary; however, most people would say that one must be aware that the statement or implication is not true. ... |
The definitions of "liar" and "lie" all seem to require that the speaker knows the statement is untrue. Examples:
From Wiktionary:
lie (plural lies)
1. An intentionally false statement; a falsehood.
2. A statement intended to deceive, even if literally true; a half-truth
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From The Free Dictionary: lie n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. |
Googling "unintentional liar" brought up this paper on "Paltering", which is essentially being misleading but not frankly lying. (Just for fun, try calling someone a "palterer" & report back to us on what happens next.) Anyway, it's kind of an interesting paper, especially considering that it's a "faculty research working paper" (they can be dry, at least in other fields) - and that it cites Michael Moore and Al Franken.
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2007 : 02:22:29 [Permalink]
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Seems to me, "paltering" is pretty much like telling a literal, outright untruth, in that either literal falsehoods, or weasel-worded falsehoods, can be conscious or can be unconscious deceptions. I think both kinds of untruths are usually conscious deceptions.
But people who have some kind of cognitive dissonance going on kind of give me the creeps. Being capable of deceiving themselves, they have an advantage over most conscious deceivers, in not signaling their lies with shifting eyes, blushes, or other such hints. These people, while usually not outright psychotic, tell "unconsciously deliberate lies," then are genuinely and convincingly hurt when called as liars. I didn't even suspect such people existed until a few years ago.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/06/2007 02:23:19 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2007 : 20:54:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Seems to me, "paltering" is pretty much like telling a literal, outright untruth, in that either literal falsehoods, or weasel-worded falsehoods, can be conscious or can be unconscious deceptions. I think both kinds of untruths are usually conscious deceptions.
But people who have some kind of cognitive dissonance going on kind of give me the creeps. Being capable of deceiving themselves, they have an advantage over most conscious deceivers, in not signaling their lies with shifting eyes, blushes, or other such hints. These people, while usually not outright psychotic, tell "unconsciously deliberate lies," then are genuinely and convincingly hurt when called as liars. I didn't even suspect such people existed until a few years ago.
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I'd like to submit "coultering" to cover the bat-shit crazy stuff that spews forth from her (Ann Coulter's) hate hole. This would be any completely bat-shit crazy assertation attributing any action by a despised political party (Republican, Democrat, Tory, Labour, Greens, Libertarians, etc) as inherently evil and/or anti-Christlike that the foaming at the mouth speaker seems to truely believe.
Keep them away from the Kool-aide. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2007 : 21:01:15 [Permalink]
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"Coultering." I like it!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 00:26:18 [Permalink]
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hrmm... how did I miss this thread? heh.
Well...
Robb said:
| Of course. There is no possibility that someone came to a different conclusion than you because evolution is a fact, no doubt we all came from the same simple life form. If they do disagree they are either some kind of ignoramous, pius or a willful liar. |
Show me a single "different" conclusion, Robb, that is supported by evidence.
The evidence of evolution is ubiquitous. It is a simple observation, and it has been documented thousands and thousands of times. Are all of the mechanisms perfectly understood? Nope. The same is true of any field of science though.
The evidence for evolution is freely available for any and all to find. There are many people who will be more than happy to explain evolution to anyone and to answer any questions.
Evolution is a settled matter from a scientific perspective. Even more settled than gravity.
So yes. Anyone who tells you different is deliberately lying to you. Perhaps they have deluded themselves into believing what they say... but, if they are intelligent enough to read, then they are intelligent enough to comprehend the basics of evolution.
Claiming that evolution is false is a more astonishing claim than a person saying there is no such thing as gravity.
What would your reaction to a person making that claim be? If you are like most, you'd think they need to be under medical supervision to make sure they don't hurt themselves.
Why make an exception for people who make an even crazier claim? Because they are religious?
More likely because you know that they aren't really crazy, they are just liars.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 00:31:54 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
| The problem with the use of liar to refer to someone who spreads misinformation is that information, knowledge, and science change with the times. We certainly wouldn't call Lamarck a liar. |
No, we wouldn't call him a liar. At the time his hypothesis was presented in a scientific context and he was making an honest and educated guess about the mechanisms of inheritance. There was no real evidence for any mechanism at the time. He was certainly not presenting his hypothesis in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence and insisting that he was right anyway.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 00:41:43 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
| If someone who knows they are ignorant on a subject spreads falsehoods about it which they believe are true, I think this would fall under lying. |
I'd say that this covers nearly everyone who is currently alive in the US, literate or not, who claims evolution is false. If all they are doing is repeating what their preacher or parents told them, then they know they are completely ignorant of evolution.
The other people, the educated ones, who run the anti-evolution campaign in the US can't be called anything but deliberate and willful liars.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 07:27:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Ricky said:
| If someone who knows they are ignorant on a subject spreads falsehoods about it which they believe are true, I think this would fall under lying. |
I'd say that this covers nearly everyone who is currently alive in the US, literate or not, who claims evolution is false. If all they are doing is repeating what their preacher or parents told them, then they know they are completely ignorant of evolution.
The other people, the educated ones, who run the anti-evolution campaign in the US can't be called anything but deliberate and willful liars.
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I have met many Creationists who did not understand how complex the fields of biology and geology are. They had absolutely no idea of their ignorance. These people would not fall into this category. Also, just because there are so many evangelical Creationists on the internet does not mean they also exist in life. I have no doubt there are many Creationists in the US who don't go around trying to spread the word of God, nor their notion of the history of the earth. These people as well would not fall under this category.
| If all they are doing is repeating what their preacher or parents told them, then they know they are completely ignorant of evolution. |
No, not if they really believe this is all there is to evolution. In such a case, they have no idea of their ignorance. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 08/07/2007 07:29:06 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 08:35:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Originally posted by Dude
[quote]If all they are doing is repeating what their preacher or parents told them, then they know they are completely ignorant of evolution. |
No, not if they really believe this is all there is to evolution. In such a case, they have no idea of their ignorance.
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Well, some of them accuse scientists and teachers of spreading lies, deliberate or through incompetence.
I really don't think it is enough to plead ignorance after such an accusation. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:04:04 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
| No, not if they really believe this is all there is to evolution. In such a case, they have no idea of their ignorance. |
I don't believe it is possible for anyone to be that ignorant. If they are speaking against evolution, then they have to know that the weight of science, and evidence, is against them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:25:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Ricky said:
| No, not if they really believe this is all there is to evolution. In such a case, they have no idea of their ignorance. |
I don't believe it is possible for anyone to be that ignorant. If they are speaking against evolution, then they have to know that the weight of science, and evidence, is against them.
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I don't know...talk to my grandmother sometime. She married at age 14 and is quite devout (her parents were devout, and theirs, etc etc). She knows nothing about science and believes whatever the preacher says the Bible says. If she is presented with a contradiction, she falls back on any number of rationalizations we have all heard before. She is completely ignorant on what science says about evolution, and believes what she has been told in church. This world view is what she has lived with for some 80+ years.
If I say that the world is very old and humans evolved, she will say that the bible doesn't teach that, case closed. There is no possibility of presenting evidence that she would comprehend or accept if it is "against" the bible. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/07/2007 11:26:36 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:42:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
There is no possibility of presenting evidence that she would comprehend or accept if it is "against" the bible.
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Well, this goes back to what Robb said:
| Of course. There is no possibility that someone came to a different conclusion than you because evolution is a fact, no doubt we all came from the same simple life form. If they do disagree they are either some kind of ignoramous, pius or a willful liar. |
Your grandmother is incapable of honestly examining the evidence. It is the only way she can keep her beliefs intact. Though Robb intended his assessment to be taken sarcastically, it strikes me as completely true. A fair examination of the evidence can only lead one to conclude evolution is a fact. If one doesn't reach that conclusion, then yes, there absolutely is some preexisting bias preventing clear thinking on the matter. More often than not, that bias is religious in nature.
P.S. My grandmother was the same way.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/07/2007 11:45:27 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:48:16 [Permalink]
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Pleco, that is an example of willful ignorance. Obviously she has had exposure to reality and the evidence of evolution(through you), but refuses to acknowledge it. My grandmother is of a similair mindset.
It is dishonest, to the point of intentional deciet imo, when people with the belief set/s of our grandmothers claim evolution is false.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 17:50:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Pleco, that is an example of willful ignorance. Obviously she has had exposure to reality and the evidence of evolution(through you), but refuses to acknowledge it. My grandmother is of a similair mindset.
It is dishonest, to the point of intentional deciet imo, when people with the belief set/s of our grandmothers claim evolution is false.
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First, thanks for contributing to this thread, Dude.
I disagree with above. I think Pleco's grandmother is a good example of the "simple ignoramus" I described in the OP, as she either had never been exposed to evolution, or failed to understand it if she had been.
On a similar note, I remember my paternal grandmother's horrified reaction to the launch of Sputnik I in 1957. She actually thought the world was coming to an end, and that God would smite humanity for a prideful act equivalent to building the Tower of Babel, another mortal attempt to storm Heaven. You had to be there to see the genuine fear.
(Perhaps fortunately for her, she died three years before the first moon landing. Seeing Neil Armstrong stomping about on one of "God's Heavenly bodies" would have sent her over the edge.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/07/2007 18:10:47 |
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Lies and the Assorted Types Who Tell Them
