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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2007 : 18:13:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dave W.
So it would be acceptable to you for a church that holds to the "curse of Ham" nonsense to bar black people from its services? How would that not be bigotry? |
The NT teaches us, beyond all doubt, that all are welcome at the foot of the cross. We have a white, black, Asian, and Latino representation amongst our congregation. One only needs to be a professing follower of the Lord Jesus Christ to become a member of our church. |
Yeah, but what about gays? Are they truly welcome in your church? Will they get the complete package, just as blacks, Asians, and Latinos?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 18:21:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
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What would Jesus do? I think it's obvious that he would not have been as bigoted, small-minded, and un-Christian as the High Point Church.
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Hear! Hear!
Very eloquently put, Halfmooner!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 07:19:16 [Permalink]
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Mm, personally, I don't like their attitude - I'd wish the guy was accepted for his doings rather than his sexual life - but it's their private property, they should be able to do whatever they want and I'd support them on that one. They're entitled to their opinion, after all; I'd hate if they were forced to do it.
Whether they are hypocrites, unChristian or bigots, doesn't really matter. It's their property. Their rules. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 07:52:50 [Permalink]
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This kind of crap does matter. It matters in that the church has needlessly exposed itself to criticsm as bigots. It matters because they are part of the whole matrix of bigotry in in Texas, the US, and the world.
They could have easily avoided this, but chose to do the wrong thing. Nobody's said they had a responsibility under criminal law to host the funeral, though there may be some civil law questions from breaking their promise.
They hurt the family that they messed with, and have shown the world what sort of bigots they are. They deserve to be bitterly criticized and considered undeserving to be considered a "moral authority," even by Texas' low standards standards.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 12:41:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I gave the quote earlier from John 8, where Jesus spoke about casting the first stone. He does not claim the woman is innocent, and yet Leviticus called for the death of male and female adulterers, just as it did for homosexual men:| Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. |
Jesus continued significantly after his "cast the first stone" words:John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. |
To me, that is one of the wisest, most beautiful parts of the Bible. I wish there were more than a few others, and that they were not smothered with the more common bigotry and genocide of that book.
What would Jesus do? I think it's obvious that he would not have been as bigoted, small-minded, and un-Christian as the High Point Church.
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Yes, Jesus has the power to forgive her and we can not condemn anyone for their sin, only God can. But Jesus does say to her go and sin no more. Meaning repent from her adultry ways. Jesus would say the same to a homosexual. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 15:54:08 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:| Yes, Jesus has the power to forgive her and we can not condemn anyone for their sin, only God can. But Jesus does say to her go and sin no more. Meaning repent from her adultry ways. Jesus would say the same to a homosexual. |
So, the premise of your argument is that Cecil Sinclair was a "sinner" to a degree more than usual, because he may have been gay?
If so, you must base this upon the assumption that sexual acts between consenting adults can be a "sin." That assumption is so freighted with other underlying assumptions that I don't even want to attempt to dissect it right now. (I will only write that I feel it is based upon an aspect of Old Testament Biblical "morality" that I find to be morally repugnant itself.)
Suffice it to say: Cecil Sinclair will "sin" no more.
The High Point Church, on the other hand, will doubtless continue their "sinning" with hypocritical casting of stones, self-righteously judging even the dead as being unworthy in their church.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/17/2007 15:56:49 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 16:05:38 [Permalink]
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I gotta agree with Sib. Their church, their rules. If they want to go back on the offer, that is their prerogative. I also agree with Rob that they would probably be hypocrites if they allowed the service the family wanted, and I think it is clear they made efforts not to be dicks about it.
All that said, I find their religious beliefs bigoted and stupid. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 16:35:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I gotta agree with Sib. Their church, their rules. If they want to go back on the offer, that is their prerogative. I also agree with Rob that they would probably be hypocrites if they allowed the service the family wanted, and I think it is clear they made efforts not to be dicks about it.
All that said, I find their religious beliefs bigoted and stupid.
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[My emphasis.]
If "hypocrisy" is defined as "inconsistency with previous hypocrisy," then I'd agree. (Such a definition would make Jesus a hypocrite for not condemning the prostitute.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/17/2007 16:37:19 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 10:51:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
So, the premise of your argument is that Cecil Sinclair was a "sinner" to a degree more than usual, because he may have been gay? |
No. He is a sinner just like you and me. The Bible is clear on this issue. If you have broken one of Gods laws you have broken them all.
| The High Point Church, on the other hand, will doubtless continue their "sinning" with hypocritical casting of stones, self-righteously judging even the dead as being unworthy in their church. |
All Christians will keep on sinning. They never said he was unworthy, but the promotion of homosexual behavior as non sin is what they rejected. He would have been allowed to have services there if the overt promotion of homosexuality was not introduced.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 11:18:32 [Permalink]
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I see you have a Clarence Darrow in your sig, implying that we would try to prevent the teaching of creation. I dont know anybody who would prevent such teachings... in a religion class, but Robb would you honestly promote the balanced teaching of all religious creation stories, including nontheist and polytheist creations? (evolution excluded as it is science based)
It is unfortunate that such classes arent available to most, too much interest from all parties to agree on anything I'm afraid.[/hijack]
Edit: Spelling |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 08/20/2007 11:22:00 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 11:21:02 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| No. He is a sinner just like you and me. |
Thats a good way to piss people off Robb. Keep your fantasy beliefs about "sin" to yourself, and don't project them on to others.
This more or less gets to the root of the problem with religion. The idea of "sin" is absurd on its face, and utterly ridiculous when examined in detail. The fact that there are people deluded enough to base their entire lives around "sin", and then insist that everyone else should as well, is why I don't have any tolerance for your religion.
If you want to judge yourself, go right ahead. But you don't have the right to judge others on issues like sexual orientation, fidelity, etc.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 17:02:47 [Permalink]
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I'm just amazed how the basic Christian concept of "sin" itself is used to justify behaving badly toward our fellow humans. This religious concept can, and is, used to fuel bigotry. As Voltaire said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." The absurdity doesn't have to even seem a major one, to be devastating in its impact.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/20/2007 20:24:27 |
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Texas mega-church reneges on funeral offer
