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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2009 : 16:52:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Christian apologists that try to use science to prove the Bible takes away Gods power to do His will however He pleases. A person cannot be converted by a scientific argument for God.
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Would you still be making this argument if the natural record 100% supported the flood myth?
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Yes, the Bible says you need more than just a belief in God to be converted. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:12:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Yes, the Bible says you need more than just a belief in God to be converted. |
The main point of this thread is the severe damage that silly tales like that of Noah's Ark do to any attempt to impart a belief system via the Bible in the face of modern-era knowledge about how the world works.
Even if people have the "more than just a belief in God" part nailed, complete, point-and-laugh rejection of the Bible is hardly conducive to conversion.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/10/2009 17:12:51 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:24:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Robb
Yes, the Bible says you need more than just a belief in God to be converted. |
The main point of this thread is the severe damage that silly tales like that of Noah's Ark do to any attempt to impart a belief system via the Bible in the face of modern-era knowledge about how the world works.
Even if people have the "more than just a belief in God" part nailed, complete, point-and-laugh rejection of the Bible is hardly conducive to conversion.
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You do not have to believe the whole Bible to be saved. When someone is saved it is not because of an explaination of how the flood could have happened by scientific terms. If that was the criteria then we would need to explain all the stories such as a donkey talking, Sampson, Jonah or the resurection? This article could have been written about any other story in the Bible. Jesus believed the Old Testament stories to be true. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 18:20:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
You do not have to believe the whole Bible to be saved. When someone is saved it is not because of an explaination of how the flood could have happened by scientific terms. If that was the criteria then we would need to explain all the stories such as a donkey talking, Sampson, Jonah or the resurection? This article could have been written about any other story in the Bible. Jesus believed the Old Testament stories to be true. |
Good luck with that. If there was a Jesus and he believed the Old Testament, that's hardly a recommendation of his common sense.
As the bible is understood by most people to be the claimed inerrant word of God, the silly (not to mention vile, bigoted, perverse and genocidal) parts are increasingly, from a practical standpoint, a real drag for evangelists.
In parable terms, the fruit of the tree of knowledge has been et, and once et, can't be un-et.
If we see an "officially" revised (ten-page?) edition of the Bible that deletes the repulsive and laughable stuff, then maybe the document will do more to convert people than to make them laugh.
Or maybe not. Most of those remaining pages would be begats/genealogies, so maybe the revised document would simply bore people even more.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/10/2009 18:21:31 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 18:36:31 [Permalink]
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| The ability to suspend reality required to believe the flood story aside, how do you rationalize the part about god killing almost every living thing on the planet? How barbaric is that? And how dysfunctional do you have to be to see this as the act of a benevolent being? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2009 : 21:14:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Jesus believed the Old Testament stories to be true.
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And if he was factually wrong about Earth's true history, that would certainly weaken the credibility of his claims to be the messiah, wouldn't it, Robb? I mean, how can the son of god have been wrong?
But just because that possibility makes you too uncomfortable to even think about, it's there. Going off like a little blinking red light in the back of your mind. It's called "the seed of doubt." You can't ignore it forever.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/10/2009 21:16:37 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2009 : 03:40:43 [Permalink]
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Dis happenin' happen a long time ago, out dere in de A-rab lans, out dere 'roun dat Gee-ruselum place.
De Naz was boppin' 'long one day, lookin' for a sip an' a smoke, an' somebody to wash his feets, 'cause if you doesn't wear no socks wid your sandals, dem feets gets dirty, when he come upon a li'l cat wid a bent frame.
“Li'l cat, you gotta a bent frame,” sez De Naz. “Dat's right, Naz,” sez de li'l cat wid de bent frame. “It be troublin' me turrible, whut wid not dancin' an' de wimmins to fass fer me to ketch. I haz to bait 'de wimmins up wid likker and dat's taken sheckles dat I ain't gots 'cause wid dis bent frame, I ain't gots no gig. I has to heist from de po' box like a pries' jus' for a jug o' Night Train. An' den, when I does ketch me a wimmin, dey keeps on getting' de pukes 'cause my frame is so bent dat I haz to do it sidewise. An' dere ain't no end of dis misery in my sight.”
Den, De Naz put his han' on de li'l cat wid de bent frame's nappy head an sez, “Be cool, li'l cat.” An' lo, de li'l cat wid de bent frame got cool, an' his arms an' his legs took to workin', an' his backbone didn' have no more kink to it. De li'l cat was grateful for dis an' washed De Naz's feets an' gived De Naz his stash an' tol' him de bes' place in dat town where he could gets a li'l brew.
An so, De Naz sets off agin, shuffin' 'round de A-rab lans, smokin' a li'l smoke an' sippin' a li'l brew, an' followed by a thousan' li'l cats wid bent frames, all tryin' to be cool an' get straight.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/11/2009 06:18:18 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 05:44:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Good luck with that. If there was a Jesus and he believed the Old Testament, that's hardly a recommendation of his common sense. |
Just to jump in here for a moment, whether Jesus believed the Old Testament or not doesn't tell you anything about his "common sense". He lived in a different period, with less possible knowledge on what can or cannot happen. His common sense might have been very good, it's just that common sense is often just plain wrong. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 07:16:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Robb
If you do not believe the Bible to be true and God does not exist then the flood story looks absurd.
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If you believe the bible to be true, then it's equally absurd that god would try to deceive his creation. It would also be absurd to ignore the fact that we have records from other ancient cultures that predate this supposed (and relatively recent) global flood that make no mention of it.
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A flood story from the middle east and no mention of the flood by other ancient cultures. Seeing these together created in my mind a single image, "Middle East Fish Tank". God can do anything. Right? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 07:18:44 [Permalink]
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| I think a more compelling argument is the age of the earth and dinosaurs. As a christian I don't know if the earth is 4.6 billion years old but I do know that it is greater than 6000-8000 years old. I think science is pretty clear on that. Also the dinosaurs had to have lived with people if the Bible is true. Science does not support that right now. There is a mention of a beast in Job that could have been a dinosaur but thats all. We actually have bones of these animals as proof they did exist. Most christians will dismiss the flood story as a miracle but it is harder to reconcile the age of the earth and dinosaurs with science since we have these bones. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 08:00:10 [Permalink]
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Obviously, God is unlimited. That makes the Omphalos hypothesis apparently sound, albeit unfalsifiable and, for some, on shaky theological grounds.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 03/11/2009 11:10:41 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 08:00:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I think a more compelling argument is the age of the earth and dinosaurs. As a christian I don't know if the earth is 4.6 billion years old but I do know that it is greater than 6000-8000 years old. I think science is pretty clear on that. Also the dinosaurs had to have lived with people if the Bible is true. Science does not support that right now. There is a mention of a beast in Job that could have been a dinosaur but thats all. We actually have bones of these animals as proof they did exist. Most christians will dismiss the flood story as a miracle but it is harder to reconcile the age of the earth and dinosaurs with science since we have these bones.
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The long and short of it is that, as with all religious texts, the Bible is filled with imaginative legends, the myths of story-tellers and parables such as the over-complicated one that I just spun. One can certainly believe in God and/or gods as long as he accepts that. It's simply too big a leap of faith to take the whole thing literally -- heh, too big a leap for some of us to accept any of it at all, the laws of Physics being what they are, but that's another argument for another time.
Religion has been a cohesive influence within the various communities since the dawn of humanity. Unfortunately, it has been so cohesive that some really ugly history has resulted when communities of differing beliefs met. This continues today, and not as subtlety as one might think.
In any event, thinking critically about it can be quite informing as well as an excellent, mental exercise.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 12:03:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
There is a mention of a beast in Job that could have been a dinosaur but thats all. We actually have bones of these animals as proof they did exist. Most christians will dismiss the flood story as a miracle but it is harder to reconcile the age of the earth and dinosaurs with science since we have these bones.
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Can you please elaborate on this part of your post.
It's something in the language I can't seem to parse to make sense. Maybe it's just me.
A little clarification would help, thanks...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 12:52:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
There is a mention of a beast in Job that could have been a dinosaur but thats all. We actually have bones of these animals as proof they did exist. Most christians will dismiss the flood story as a miracle but it is harder to reconcile the age of the earth and dinosaurs with science since we have these bones.
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Can you please elaborate on this part of your post.
It's something in the language I can't seem to parse to make sense. Maybe it's just me.
A little clarification would help, thanks...
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Doc, I think this is the "beast" Robb is refering to. Job 40:15-41:10 (NIV)
15 "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which
feeds on grass like an ox.
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Current thought is that this refers ot a hippotomus or a rhino, and the "tail" mentioned is actually the animal's penis. The story-teller again, eh: "never tell it straight if your audience are suckers." How well I know! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 12:35:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Doc, I think this is the "beast" Robb is refering to. Job 40:15-41:10 (NIV)
15 "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which
feeds on grass like an ox.
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That part I got straight, the first sentence of the quoted paragraph. But it's the rest of it that doesn't parse. And how it connects to the first sentence.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Fundamentalists Hate Noah’s Ark
