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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2007 : 11:17:42
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Cheap weapons in England.
| Despite a ban on handguns introduced in 1997 ..., their use in crimes has almost doubled to reach 4,671 in 2005-06. Official figures show that although Britain has some of the toughest anti-gun laws in the world, firearm use in crime has risen steadily. |
It looks like gun control only stops a law abider from using guns.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2007 : 11:56:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Try comparing per-capita gun-related injuries and deaths in the two countries.
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The information is from England; they are comparing England prior to the gun ban and England after the gun ban.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 12:12:29 [Permalink]
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"Gun control" is a firm grip with both hands!
Other than that, it really doesn't keep firearms out of the hands of criminals all that well; rather it creates a black market of stolen guns and dishonest dealers. Not to mention homebrew specials such as the infamous "zip" guns of the '50s. These were made from car antennas wrapped with friction tape and wire, mounted in a rough-carved, wooden block and fired with a crude, external hammer powered by a thick rubber band. They had no trigger and were .22 caliber rimfire.
Of the ones I made, the best of them only held up for 3 shots with .22 Short before the "barrel" split. Ridiculous weapon, yes, but pretty effective at arms-reach range. There are better ways to do this....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 12:15:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
"Gun control" is a firm grip with both hands!
Other than that, it really doesn't keep firearms out of the hands of criminals all that well; rather it creates a black market of stolen guns and dishonest dealers. Not to mention homebrew specials such as the infamous "zip" guns of the '50s. These were made from car antennas wrapped with friction tape and wire, mounted in a rough-carved, wooden block and fired with a crude, external hammer powered by a thick rubber band. They had no trigger and were .22 caliber rimfire.
Of the ones I made, the best of them only held up for 3 shots with .22 Short before the "barrel" split. Ridiculous weapon, yes, but pretty effective at arms-reach range. There are better ways to do this....
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Obviously a man from the south.
I have never heard of the "zip" gun. Amazing!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 13:16:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
I find it hard to blame an increase in gun use in crime on the banning of them. Is that increase following the same increase that was happening before they were banned? If it is, then I would conclude that the banning of guns probably has little or no effect. But if there was an increase in the rate of change, then that seems to point at something else going on.
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Why do you find it hard to believe? There will always be criminals, and if these criminals know that the victims are always unarmed then that gives them more power to commit their crimes.
It is a recent circumstance that bobbies have needed to carry guns.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2007 : 13:18:48 [Permalink]
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If memory serves me, and I'm old enough that it might not, the Zippies had their genesis in the large, northern cities such as NYC and were a response to such as NY's Sullivan Act, where bigger thieves than mere street thugs were in charge. "Big Tim" Sullivan was a politician and organized crime boss in this period. He was a part of the Tammany Hall political machine that controlled a corrupt New York City Police Department (and thereby the future Pistol Licensing Bureau). He also owned the Hesper Club, a successful gambling establishment on the lower east side. This is the man who proposed the Sullivan Act and it is named after.
By writing the law as it was, Sullivan provided himself several advantages. He could:
guarantee his body guards could be armed,
guarantee his opponent's body guards should not be armed,
and use a corrupt police force to arrest his opponents for violations, guilty or not.
It is said that one political opponent had all his pockets sewn closed after three arrests for carrying guns without a permit. |
I can't verify this, but it is said that the Pachucos, tired of bringing knives to knife fights, first made the Zips from car antennas in the late '40s/early '50s.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 13:20:54 [Permalink]
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City Murder rates: 25 years after DC's ban
Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000
Arlington is a stones throw from DC.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 13:33:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
If memory serves me, and I'm old enough that it might not, the Zippies had their genesis in the large, northern cities such as NYC and were a response to such as NY's Sullivan Act, where bigger thieves than mere street thugs were in charge. "Big Tim" Sullivan was a politician and organized crime boss in this period. He was a part of the Tammany Hall political machine that controlled a corrupt New York City Police Department (and thereby the future Pistol Licensing Bureau). He also owned the Hesper Club, a successful gambling establishment on the lower east side. This is the man who proposed the Sullivan Act and it is named after.
By writing the law as it was, Sullivan provided himself several advantages. He could:
guarantee his body guards could be armed,
guarantee his opponent's body guards should not be armed,
and use a corrupt police force to arrest his opponents for violations, guilty or not.
It is said that one political opponent had all his pockets sewn closed after three arrests for carrying guns without a permit. |
I can't verify this, but it is said that the Pachucos, tired of bringing knives to knife fights, first made the Zips from car antennas in the late '40s/early '50s.
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It seems as if the Sullivan act was used to protect corrupt government officials from the people. The exact opposite of the meaning behind the constitution concerning arms.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 17:05:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
City Murder rates: 25 years after DC's ban
Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000
Arlington is a stones throw from DC.
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And Windsor, Ontario is a stones throw from Detroit, Michigan
Why don't you compare their muder rates.
Also, do Arilington and Washington have the same per capita incomes, unemplowyment rates, availabiltiy of crack. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 17:37:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The information is from England; they are comparing England prior to the gun ban and England after the gun ban. |
No, they're comparing the use of guns in the commission of crimes before and after the ban. You, somehow, take such data and apply it to people who aren't committing crimes,| It looks like gun control only stops a law abider from using guns. |
Such a statement is a complete non-sequitor even given your description of what's being compared. Heck, if the overall crime rate in England has doubled during the same time period, then there's been no increase in the rate of gun use during crimes.
So, I suggested you compare something that might actually offer a hint as to whether or not English gun control laws work as intended, because that seemed to be, from your OP, what you wanted to talk about. If not, then what is it you do want to discuss here? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 17:41:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
City Murder rates: 25 years after DC's ban
Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000
Arlington is a stones throw from DC.
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And Windsor, Ontario is a stones throw from Detroit, Michigan
Why don't you compare their muder rates.
Also, do Arilington and Washington have the same per capita incomes, unemplowyment rates, availabiltiy of crack.
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Can you cross the border freely? What are the gun laws in these cities?
There are zero restrictions crossing between the two cities. Virginia is a right to carry state, DC is a handgun banned city.
From wiki.
Arlington income $37,000
DC income $40,000
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost
DC unemployment 5.6%
Arlington unemployment 3.1%
Crack is easy to come by in both cities.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 18:02:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
City Murder rates: 25 years after DC's ban
Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,000
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,000
Arlington is a stones throw from DC.
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Crime in Washington, D.C. Source Wiki
During the violent crime wave of the early 1990s, Washington, D.C. was known as the "murder capital" of the United States,[49] and often rivaled New Orleans in the high number of homicides. Homicides peaked in 1991 at 482, but the level of violence declined drastically in the 1990s. In 2006, there were 169 murders in the city.[50] Once plagued with violent crime, many D.C. neighborhoods, such as Columbia Heights, are becoming safe and vibrant areas as a result of gentrification. While not as intensely violent, crime hot spots have since displaced farther into the eastern sections of Washington, D.C. and across the border into Maryland. Although the southeastern side of the city has developed a reputation for being unsafe, these crime hot spots are generally concentrated in very specific areas that are associated with drugs and gangs.[6] Other areas east of the U.S. Capitol, as well as the city's wealthier Northwest neighborhoods west of Rock Creek Park, experience low levels of crime. Despite the declining trends, Washington D.C. crime rates (2005) remain among the highest of U.S. cities, and it was most recently ranked as the 13th most dangerous city in the nation (2005). Washington, D.C.'s crime rate surpasses the rates of L.A. and New York.[51]
Washington, D.C.'s Mayor Fenty is a member of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition,[52] an organization formed in 2006 and co-chaired by New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg and Boston mayor Thomas Menino. |
So, DC went from being 1st to being 13th in about a 15-year period well after the strict gun law was enacted.
I don't think that statistic is any more meaningful than the one you supplied, Jerome, with regard to gun control. But I could use it the same way you used your statistic if I wanted to.
Raw statistics don't mean a thing without examining all of the data to know what the numbers mean.
What you did was a classic demonstration of the misuse of statistics.
Nice try though…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 18:04:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
There are zero restrictions crossing between the two cities. Virginia is a right to carry state, DC is a handgun banned city.
From wiki.
Arlington income $37,000
DC income $40,000
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost
DC unemployment 5.6%
Arlington unemployment 3.1%
Crack is easy to come by in both cities. |
And you, a resident of D.C., know damn well that D.C. and Arlington are vastly different in many ways. For example, D.C. is a city, while Arlington is a whole county. D.C. is 57% black, while Arlington is 80% white. D.C. has under 78% high school graduates, while Arlington has just under 88%. D.C. has almost 29% more people per square mile, and has fewer housing units per capita.
I'm sure you know of plenty of other differences, too, so it'd probably be a good idea for you to quit acting as if they're nearly the same as far as gun control statistics are concerned. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gun Crimes Up After Ban?
