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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2007 : 19:10:33 [Permalink]
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O.K., nobody liked my analogy. What explanation; based on the article and any other information garnered, is there for gun crimes to double since the gun ban in Britain?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 19:20:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
O.K., nobody liked my analogy. What explanation; based on the article and any other information garnered, is there for gun crimes to double since the gun ban in Britain? |
Have you looked at the overall crime rate as I suggested? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 19:33:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
O.K., nobody liked my analogy. What explanation; based on the article and any other information garnered, is there for gun crimes to double since the gun ban in Britain?
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As Dave suggested, there could be myriad factors. Has crime overall increased? What about population? Pulling raw statistics out of greater context is of little value.
You stated earlier that "if these criminals know that the victims are always unarmed then that gives them more power to commit their crimes." Do you really think that this is that case? Indeed, there's no reason to think that gun crimes will increase because a criminal knows that a victim won't have a gun. After all, if I expect a victim not to have a gun while walking along late at night, then I cam be just as effective with, say, a cricket bat, as I can with a gun.
I might also ask what the gun rules were before the ban. You imply that it was the Wild West in London, where any old chap could-- and likely did-- carry a six-shooter around. Is this the case? If not, and if gun ownership was limited, then your initial point is moot. Indeed, a criminal is almost assured of finding me unarmed (unless you count my fists, which are lethal, of course) despite the fact that I legally own a gun. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 20:52:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
"Gun control" is a firm grip with both hands!
Other than that, it really doesn't keep firearms out of the hands of criminals all that well; rather it creates a black market of stolen guns and dishonest dealers. Not to mention homebrew specials such as the infamous "zip" guns of the '50s. These were made from car antennas wrapped with friction tape and wire, mounted in a rough-carved, wooden block and fired with a crude, external hammer powered by a thick rubber band. They had no trigger and were .22 caliber rimfire.
Of the ones I made, the best of them only held up for 3 shots with .22 Short before the "barrel" split. Ridiculous weapon, yes, but pretty effective at arms-reach range. There are better ways to do this....
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Obviously a man from the south.
I have never heard of the "zip" gun. Amazing!
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Nope. I'm from Chicago and I've heard of them. In the violent 70's and 80's, they were made from copper tubing and an assembly using a nail acting as a firing pin. One shot weapons, but that's all you needed em for.
Again, gun ownership bans don't take guns off the street from criminals who typically do not aquire their weapons from legal sources. They only take guns away from the law abiding people. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 22:00:49 [Permalink]
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I'll just note that in the days when practically nobody, from police on down, owned or carried a concealable firearm in Britain, there was a good deal of violence, anyway. Much of it involved drunken fights, naturally. And knives. As I recall, knife attacks with apparent intent to kill were very, very common. But, unlike victims of similar attack with pistols, almost all knife victims survived.
I suspect that the rising gun possession rate in the UK is partly fueling itself, in a kind of arms race mentality. I also suspect that Europeanization, easy traveling, and the Chunnel are factors, giving Brits relatively easy access to the underground continental gun market.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 23:45:40 [Permalink]
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Jerome (when did he get let back in?) is approaching this issue from the wrong direction anyway.
The proper question to ask of gun-control advocates is this: What evidence do you have that strict gun laws lower the rates of gun related crimes?
The answer is: None.
Crime rates have far more to do with poverty than almost anything else.
Gun control laws, gun bans, etc.. are a waste of taxpayer resources because they are demonstrably ineffective.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 03:42:33 [Permalink]
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What Dude said....
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that a judge shot down DC's gun law some months back.
I've been told by deputy sheriffs and state cops that they like the concealed carry laws. They say that street crime in general has decreased in every state that has the provision. That's just ancedote; I don't have any satistics.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Yojimbo99
New Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 12:11:21 [Permalink]
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I think crime is way to big of issue to look at just one aspect of the problem and be able to stand back and say with any real truth that it is the single biggest piece of the puzzle. You have to look at a very big overall picture and even then it is not clear. For example I hunted down some numbers on my city( Gary, In) and depending how one presents and pieces the material together one could come up with some assanine assumptions.
less money = less murder:
Estimated median household income in 2005: $25,496 (it was $27,195 in 2000)
2001 we had 82 murders/manslaughters but in 2005 it was down to 58( and still almost 8 and a half times higher then national rate per captia) http://www.idcide.com/citydata/in/gary.htm
Having less people means less murder.(using same murder numbers as previous)
Population (year 2000): 102,746. Estimated population in July 2006: 97,715 (-4.9% change)
Err wait having less people means more murder as Gary peaked in population around 1960 with about a 178,000 and has been on a decline ever since.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary,_Indiana
none of this took into account other crime, police budgets, crime prevention, community actions, national politics, job losses, unemployment rate or population/business migration to outlying towns or cities or for that matter the crime rates of those outlying cities( as in did people leaving Gary just move a few miles down the road and bring the crime with em?) and I am sure those who are really into statistics and crime can come up with a much longer list then me of potential variables ( hell, has anyone plotted gun deaths vs climate changes?)
oh and for some more fun here is a side by side of Gary vs DC
http://chicago.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=Washington&s1=DC&c2=Gary&s2=IN and remember Indiana is "must issue" state( If one does not have felony or mental illness or anything like that the state has to issue one a concealed weapons permit, somes things are good in Hoosier land)
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It's not so much wanting to die, but controlling that moment, choosing your own way. - GG Allin
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 08/26/2007 : 12:24:56 [Permalink]
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Fun research, Yojimbo99. Thanks.
Ultimately, the right to bear arms is for the protection of the individual citizen from the tyranny of government.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 13:10:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Fun research, Yojimbo99. Thanks.
Ultimately, the right to bear arms is for the protection of the individual citizen from the tyranny of government.
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A pearl of wisdom and I'm glad to note that you didn't point out which government. England made our founding fathers paranoid enough to write the Second Amendment into the Constitution and they were proven right to do so in 1812. And remember, self-preservation and expansion is the unwritten prime directive of all governments; indeed all organizations of any kind.
They rave about the ubiquity of robbery & murder & general thuggery involving firearms and then insist that I should give up mine. Ain't happenin'.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 13:41:11 [Permalink]
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Being a Brit and not much up on American history, isn't the right to arms to do with the defence of the country by a militia?
Some statistics here that might shed some light on the debate
http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/eighthsurvey/8sv.pdf
Shows in table 2.4
rate of intentional homicides with firearm USA 3.25 per 1000
UK is 0.02 |
Baza |
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Yojimbo99
New Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:03:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baza
Being a Brit and not much up on American history, isn't the right to arms to do with the defence of the country by a militia?
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Amendment 2
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
Persons of tyranny like to forget about those lil pesky commas in the amendment and pretend that the 2nd amendment is only for the establishment of a militia( which is often called 'out-moded' by those same pricks), but in truth, the founding fathers knew that the people might one day might have to not only defend themsleves from the normal criminal, but also that a day might come into being that required the free-persons of the nation to stand up and fight back against the govt. itself. For a good entertaining explanation of what the 2nd Amendment is I recomend Penn & Tellers take on it in season 3 episode 9 of Penn and Teller: Bullshit series from Showtime.
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It's not so much wanting to die, but controlling that moment, choosing your own way. - GG Allin
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:03:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baza
Being a Brit and not much up on American history, isn't the right to arms to do with the defence of the country by a militia?
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No, to secure a free state (free from government interference), the ability to form a militia (free citizens) must be guaranteed.
The idea of a militia is to differentiate between government troops and citizen troops.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 14:51:03 [Permalink]
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| Thanks yojimbo I'll take a look.... |
Baza |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2007 : 19:56:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Jerome (when did he get let back in?) is approaching this issue from the wrong direction anyway.
The proper question to ask of gun-control advocates is this: What evidence do you have that strict gun laws lower the rates of gun related crimes?
The answer is: None.
Crime rates have far more to do with poverty than almost anything else.
Gun control laws, gun bans, etc.. are a waste of taxpayer resources because they are demonstrably ineffective.
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Bingo.
If memory serves, Vermont has the least gun regulations. It also has the least gun related crime. It likewise has a high median household income.
Chicago, lost of gun crime, extreme gun control laws (no concealed carry, no private handgun ownership), and a lot of poverty.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gun Crimes Up After Ban?
