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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 04:00:38
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Turns out
Mother Teresa was an atheist, afraid to let people know there was no evidence at all of God in her life.
Normally, I'm told that the good of religion is that it at least "comforts" people. Now we're told that Mother Teresa was driven by the misery of her religion to do her "good works." That is, collect millions of dollars under false pretenses , praise Papa Doc Duvalier in public to collect more millions, offer people no medical treatment in her "hospital."
And in fact, that appears to be the case. A new, innocuously titled book, Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light (Doubleday), consisting primarily of correspondence between Teresa and her confessors and superiors over a period of 66 years, provides the spiritual counterpoint to a life known mostly through its works. The letters, many of them preserved against her wishes (she had requested that they be destroyed but was overruled by her church), reveal that for the last nearly half-century of her life she felt no presence of God whatsoever — or, as the book's compiler and editor, the Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk, writes, "neither in her heart or in the eucharist."
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They mention Christopher Hitchens, but fail to mention the things that Hitchens has written about her.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 04:03:42
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 04:53:33 [Permalink]
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What a vicious old fraud she was. Not even a "pious" fraud, just a murderous scam artist. From such stuff are made the saints.
Mother Teresa was definitely a "Sly Manipulator" under my classification system.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/27/2007 04:59:22 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 06:03:43 [Permalink]
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Would have been a good idea to post the blog where I learned about this first: Dave Silverman's blog
Dave's Musings:
1) OK so she appears to have been downright Atheistic in her writings. why did she continue to do her work? Just to be a good person? Does this eliminate the remnants of the religion=morality thing?
2) I hate the term "Crisis of faith". It's not a crisis. It's a revelation of reality. An Epiphany of intellect. An happy-hour of honesty. Not a crisis by any means.
3) One must wonder how many more religious leaders out there are faking it. Could it be... a lot? |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 06:35:53 [Permalink]
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They do do more than mention Hitchens:
[Hitchens]"She was no more exempt from the realization that religion is a human fabrication than any other person, and that her attempted cure was more and more professions of faith could only have deepened the pit that she had dug for herself." [Time]Meanwhile, some familiar with the smiling mother's extraordinary drive may diagnose her condition less as a gift of God than as a subconscious attempt at the most radical kind of humility: she punished herself with a crippling failure to counterbalance her great successes.
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[Time]The atheist position is simpler. In 1948, Hitchens ventures, Teresa finally woke up, although she could not admit it. He likens her to die-hard Western communists late in the cold war: "There was a huge amount of cognitive dissonance," he says. "They thought, 'Jesus, the Soviet Union is a failure, [but] I'm not supposed to think that. It means my life is meaningless.' They carried on somehow, but the mainspring was gone. And I think once the mainspring is gone, it cannot be repaired." That, he says, was Teresa.
Most religious readers will reject that explanation, along with any that makes her the author of her own misery — or even defines it as true misery. Martin, responding to the torch-song image of Teresa, counterproposes her as the heroically constant spouse. "Let's say you're married and you fall in love and you believe with all your heart that marriage is a sacrament. And your wife, God forbid, gets a stroke and she's comatose. And you will never experience her love again. It's like loving and caring for a person for 50 years and once in a while you complain to your spiritual director, but you know on the deepest level that she loves you even though she's silent and that what you're doing makes sense. Mother Teresa knew that what she was doing made sense." |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 06:38:17 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 07:49:06 [Permalink]
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Wow, could there be more venom in this forum already?
Chritopher Hitchen's book about Mother Theresa seems to have given atheists permission to demonize Mother Theresa. But to make her out to be some kind of monster is as delusional as making her out to be a saint. She is not recognized for what she really was - a religious eccentric who got herself in a position of great fame and resources.
For those who would rip on the fact that much of her charitable works were not practical, and served religious ideals rather than basic human needs, I would say: Okay, and what are YOU doing to alleviate the world's poverty and suffering? Seriously, every minute spent on this forum, you could be out trying to make the world a less painful place. All that money you spent going out to eat, or buying new clothes when you could have gone to a thrift store, so many things which are great luxuries when considered in the grand scheme of the whole world, you could have not bought, and instead donated that expendable income to charity.
Mother Theresa may not have been the great saint that so many people make her out to be, but she did not cause more suffering. I saw that episode of Penn and Teller on her, and they rip on the fact that she did all that she did for "her own enlightenment". Well I spent $80 on tickets for the Live Arts festival in Philly next weekend, which is for my own enlightenment, and I certainly could have given that money to charity instead. The way we tear down the great Saint of Mother Theresa is not by inventing an equally false monster version.
Gorgo wrote: Turns out
Mother Teresa was an atheist, afraid to let people know there was no evidence at all of God in her life. |
Oh for crying out loud! Lacking the spiritual experience or feeling of faith is a far far cry from being an atheist. That's like saying that when I've been up all night and really stressed out, and I get paranoid feelings about zombies that I actually believe in them.
Christians grappling with this sort of doubt and writing about it is as old as Christianity itself. In Mark and Matthew, even Jesus himself has a moment of darkness, calling out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Hell, even older - ever read Ecclesiastes? Saint Augustine wrote about his own struggles with doubt extensively. This sort of thing is build in to Christianity.
Are we so upset about the extreme that many religious people take that we must take our own extreme with misrepresentation, mislabeling, promoting ignorance and falsehoods? Is it even possible for some of the religious-haters on this forum to even try to understand all the layers of religious theology, experience, and belief, instead of seeing it only through the lenses of ignorance and fundamentalism so it is easy to condemn? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 07:54:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Wow, could there be more venom in this forum already?
Chritopher Hitchen's book about Mother Theresa seems to have given atheists permission to demonize Mother Theresa. But to make her out to be some kind of monster is as delusional as making her out to be a saint. She is not recognized for what she really was - a religious eccentric who got herself in a position of great fame and resources.
For those who would rip on the fact that much of her charitable works were not practical, and served religious ideals rather than basic human needs, I would say: Okay, and what are YOU doing to alleviate the world's poverty and suffering? Seriously, every minute spent on this forum, you could be out trying to make the world a less painful place. All that money you spent going out to eat, or buying new clothes when you could have gone to a thrift store, so many things which are great luxuries when considered in the grand scheme of the whole world, you could have not bought, and instead donated that expendable income to charity.
Mother Theresa may not have been the great saint that so many people make her out to be, but she did not cause more suffering. I saw that episode of Penn and Teller on her, and they rip on the fact that she did all that she did for "her own enlightenment". Well I spent $80 on tickets for the Live Arts festival in Philly next weekend, which is for my own enlightenment, and I certainly could have given that money to charity instead. The way we tear down the great Saint of Mother Theresa is not by inventing an equally false monster version.
Gorgo wrote: Turns out
Mother Teresa was an atheist, afraid to let people know there was no evidence at all of God in her life. |
Oh for crying out loud! Lacking the spiritual experience or feeling of faith is a far far cry from being an atheist. That's like saying that when I've been up all night and really stressed out, and I get paranoid feelings about zombies that I actually believe in them.
Christians grappling with this sort of doubt and writing about it is as old as Christianity itself. In Mark and Matthew, even Jesus himself has a moment of darkness, calling out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Hell, even older - ever read Ecclesiastes? Saint Augustine wrote about his own struggles with doubt extensively. This sort of thing is build in to Christianity.
Are we so upset about the extreme that many religious people take that we must take our own extreme with misrepresentation, mislabeling, promoting ignorance and falsehoods? Is it even possible for some of the religious-haters on this forum to even try to understand all the layers of religious theology, experience, and belief, instead of seeing it only through the lenses of ignorance and fundamentalism so it is easy to condemn?
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Well said, Marf.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 08:22:47 [Permalink]
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Maybe God left her because her tending to the suffering did not include the things she could have done, like to actually help the sick recover from their illness by supplying needed medical care.
She loved suffering and was apparently willing to not lift a finger by addressing the needs of the suffering, at least in the physical sense.
She sent souls to a heaven she did not even believe in any longer.
All that leaves us with is a self promoter who's fame was more important to her than her mission, which left much to be desired in the first place.
What a piece of work…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 08:56:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Wow, could there be more venom in this forum already?
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Yes, at least publicly she did promote herself as a believer, and none of these things mean that she admitted to herself she was a non-believer, so technically, yes, she was a believer.
And you're right, she made no claims to be doing anything constructive with her money, so technically she is not a fraud. However, likening her spending millions to promote her own brand of insanity to me spending $20 a weekend on entertainment is a little odd.
One cannot discount the fact that she had orphanages that probably did a little good, that were not helped much at all by the millions that she collected worldwide.
Venom has a good purpose for the snake. Mother Teresa, I'm sure, helped someone somewhere along the line, as I suppose Jerry Falwell did once in a while. Even a snake helps the environment, if only by accident, for its own survival. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:01:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Seriously, every minute spent on this forum, you could be out trying to make the world a less painful place. |
Combatting tunnelvision with more tunnelvision, marf, is perhaps not the best way to make your point.
Some of us spend time on this forum in order to try to make the world a less-painful place.
Seriously. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:02:21 [Permalink]
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I've heard "what do you do" since I've been on the internet at an average of about once a month.
What I do is none of your business unless I tell you what I do.
What I don't do is collect millions of dollars from people who think I am working miracles. What I don't do is praise dictators so I can collect their money. What I don't do is tell you how wonderful suffering is, while I go to fancy hospitals to take care of my needs.
What I did do is talk about the facts, rather than just call her a moron or an asshole, without really contributing anything to the thread.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:06:27 [Permalink]
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Thanks. I'll try to listen later. By "modern priest" did you mean that as an oxymoron? Someone pushing a nearly prehistoric tribal religion "modernized" to what, the Middle Ages? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 09:07:05 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:16:22 [Permalink]
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Did not cause more suffering?
You haven't been paying attention at all. She promoted suffering. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:25:21 [Permalink]
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The main point is not really that she's an atheist. She was, but wouldn't admit it to herself or others, so technically, that means she wasn't. The main point isn't whether she was a fraud or not. As far as I know, she made no claims to be doing any good with all that money, although she had to know that people thought she was doing some good, that evidently wasn't her fault, so piss on them.
The main point is that there is nothing one can do to persuade people like Marf that religion is at least useless, if not destructive.
If she was happy, it was because religion "comforts" people. If she was unhappy, it was because she was "driven" to find Jesus. If she did something destructive, it was because I go to the movies and don't collect millions for no good reason. It's an unwinnable argument. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 09:26:17 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:27:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by marfknox
Seriously, every minute spent on this forum, you could be out trying to make the world a less painful place. |
Combatting tunnelvision with more tunnelvision, marf, is perhaps not the best way to make your point.
Some of us spend time on this forum in order to try to make the world a less-painful place.
Seriously.
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Or, at least we'd like to fool ourselves into thinking we're trying to do that. Evidently only grand, stupid, destructive acts are good enough for Martha to acknowledge. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:30:02 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: | Maybe God left her because her tending to the suffering did not include the things she could have done, like to actually help the sick recover from their illness by supplying needed medical care. |
While I don't believe in a literal God, and I know you don't either, I think there is some real sense to this. I think Mother Theresa's interest in certain practices and rituals and methods for obtaining spiritual fulfillment exceeded her interest in the real goal: establishing a firm meaning of life by being connected to something greater than yourself. And by certain I mean the ones which include self-inflicted suffering, such as fasting. Just like drugs or thrill-seekers, she became addicted to suffering itself and lost touch with what the suffering was supposed to be connected to.
All that leaves us with is a self promoter who's fame was more important to her than her mission, which left much to be desired in the first place.
What a piece of work… |
I disagree. I think the word for it is masochism.
| She loved suffering and was apparently willing to not lift a finger by addressing the needs of the suffering, at least in the physical sense. |
I gotta wonder if her masochism extended beyond the physical into the spiritual, and thus she brought on the absence of God in her life through her own deep desire to personally suffer.
Like I said, religious eccentric.
Gorgo wrote: | And you're right, she made no claims to be doing anything constructive with her money, so technically she is not a fraud. However, likening her spending millions to promote her own brand of insanity to me spending $20 a weekend on entertainment is a little odd. |
She was not personally a millionaire. People gave her that money specifically for her mission. The people who donated the money are just as "guilty" in it as she is. Like you said, she wasn't a fraud; she wasn't hiding what she did with the money. But people still gave it to her. Today people admire her for one of two reasons. 1.) They are ignorant of the specifics of her mission and think she really was this great humanitarian. 2.) They place the religious ideals of Mother Theresa above the alleviation of human suffering and spiritually get off on what she did. I'm more annoyed by these people than I am by Mother Theresa herself.
Beyond that, do you have any idea what incredible good $20. can do in some places? The average annual income of individuals in several countries is around $300-$400. Just $300. can send a teenager in Kenya or Ethiopia to boarding school for an entire year, where they are likely to get a much better education and be able to earn more money in their lifetime.
Dave wrote:
Some of us spend time on this forum in order to try to make the world a less-painful place. |
No, it wasn't tunnel vision – I thought of that, I just wasn't impressed by it. IM |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 09:30:39 |
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Crisis of Faith- Time Mag
