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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 08:49:37 [Permalink]
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| Any for-profit system that educates children is doomed, though they may do well in the short run. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2007 : 09:08:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Any for-profit system that educates children is doomed, though they may do well in the short run.
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Is the private university system doomed?
When do you anticipate this system of private education to fail?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 09:14:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I suspect you have read Wealth of Nations. I would suggest that you refresh your memory and then correlate what you read with economic history. |
Awww, you let me down by simply dodging the subject.
Suffice it to say, Jerome, that with these comments you have truly and finally lost the high ground when it comes to accusing others of not being skeptical enough, on any subject. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 09:21:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Not true. From someone who lived under that system, two natural consequences:
- good schools charge high;
- cheaper schools can hardly balance themselves;
- diploma mills - schools that don't care about the quality, only quantity.
What happens is, people with money can get good education, people without money can't (and thus can't compete with people with money... see where I'm getting at?), the government takes its monies anyway, society is majorly screwed because a large chunk of it are quasi illiterate.
It sounds sweet on paper, but reality sucks.
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If I remember correctly, you are in Brazil. The problem in Brazil is not the school system, it is the corruption in government that furthers a society with dramatic separation of the classes. One of my friends was a college educated high school teacher in Brazil before she came to America. She left because of the corruption and inability to move along the social/economic ladder. In Brazil; being a teacher, she could not afford to leave her parents home. In America, she sells pasties, from this she owns her own car, home, and can afford trips to various parts of the world for vacation.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 09:31:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
My point was more to suggest that there are some things that the government can do better and at a lower cost than the private sector. I'm still not convinced that education is something that is always best done by the private sector. In the case of universities, I'd wager that one gets a better deal with public (lower cost) colleges than with private ones. But perhaps that goes outside the realm of this discussion.
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One could make the argument that a less restrictive private army like Blackwater can be more effective than the current standing public army.
One could also make the argument that a private army is much less expensive than a publicly funded one.
I do not want to engage in this because there are aspects of a standing army that I do prefer. I would need to contemplate these thoughts to come to a reasoned position.
Anytime you; personally, are being subsidized by others its is a "better deal" for you. The question is: Is society as a whole getting a "better deal" when individual labor is taken from one member of society and given to another member of society.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 09:34:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I suspect you have read Wealth of Nations. I would suggest that you refresh your memory and then correlate what you read with economic history. |
Awww, you let me down by simply dodging the subject.
Suffice it to say, Jerome, that with these comments you have truly and finally lost the high ground when it comes to accusing others of not being skeptical enough, on any subject.
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HUH?
History proves the point. What am I not being skeptical concerning this question?
How did you anticipate I would answer?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 09:49:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
HUH?
History proves the point. What am I not being skeptical concerning this question? |
Why are so many economists of today doubtful of the free-market principles laid out 100 years ago? The "invisible hand" is certainly not always the best solution. The answer to my question is not "read this book," unless you wish to sound like a Biblical literalist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 10:16:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Anytime you; personally, are being subsidized by others its is a "better deal" for you. The question is: Is society as a whole getting a "better deal" when individual labor is taken from one member of society and given to another member of society. |
Well, yes. I'd rather there be plenty of smart, educated people in our workforce, and that comes best by providing free public education for as long as possible so every kid can learn to read, write, think, etc. Everyone benefits from this, even people who have no children.
We could quibble with how effective our education system is at present, but to do so out of context would be a worthless discussion. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 12:26:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Why are so many economists of today doubtful of the free-market principles laid out 100 years ago? The "invisible hand" is certainly not always the best solution. The answer to my question is not "read this book," unless you wish to sound like a Biblical literalist.
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The book was written 230 years ago.
What economists are doubtful of the free-market?
What are their proposed alternatives?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 12:29:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Well, yes. I'd rather there be plenty of smart, educated people in our workforce, and that comes best by providing free public education for as long as possible so every kid can learn to read, write, think, etc. Everyone benefits from this, even people who have no children.
We could quibble with how effective our education system is at present, but to do so out of context would be a worthless discussion.
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If our system was producing plenty of smart, educated, thinking people, you would have a point. The system has been shown not to work. We can argue as to why this is, but the fact remains that the system does not produce what you desire.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 12:34:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Siberia
Not true. From someone who lived under that system, two natural consequences:
- good schools charge high;
- cheaper schools can hardly balance themselves;
- diploma mills - schools that don't care about the quality, only quantity.
What happens is, people with money can get good education, people without money can't (and thus can't compete with people with money... see where I'm getting at?), the government takes its monies anyway, society is majorly screwed because a large chunk of it are quasi illiterate.
It sounds sweet on paper, but reality sucks.
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If I remember correctly, you are in Brazil. The problem in Brazil is not the school system, it is the corruption in government that furthers a society with dramatic separation of the classes. One of my friends was a college educated high school teacher in Brazil before she came to America. She left because of the corruption and inability to move along the social/economic ladder. In Brazil; being a teacher, she could not afford to leave her parents home. In America, she sells pasties, from this she owns her own car, home, and can afford trips to various parts of the world for vacation.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
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Uh-hu, and you think U.S. would be any different? Different scales, granted, but the system would work the same way, bro. Some people would pay shitty salaries to their teachers so they could pump up their revenues, the teachers wouldn't care, and you'd end with the same lousy education, only paid.
People are keen to blame corruption on every issue, but that's now how the thing goes, bro. Not how it goes at all.
Oh, and our public colleges are a lot better than our private ones, too. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 12:54:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Well, yes. I'd rather there be plenty of smart, educated people in our workforce, and that comes best by providing free public education for as long as possible so every kid can learn to read, write, think, etc. Everyone benefits from this, even people who have no children.
We could quibble with how effective our education system is at present, but to do so out of context would be a worthless discussion.
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If our system was producing plenty of smart, educated, thinking people, you would have a point. The system has been shown not to work. We can argue as to why this is, but the fact remains that the system does not produce what you desire. |
I'd agree that it's not producing only smart, educated, thinking people. But I'd say that it produces at least enough. I desire more, to be sure, but again there are myriad factors that play into that, and having a completely privatized school system (participation in which is optional?) would do nothing to resolve those problems. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 13:05:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The book was written 230 years ago. |
My mistake, I was looking at the publishing date of the fifth edition, it seems.| What economists are doubtful of the free-market? |
If you are unaware of any dissent, perhaps it is not I who needs to study.| What are their proposed alternatives? |
How do these questions of yours answer my question? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 13:11:34 [Permalink]
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(/quote)What government monopoly that sells a service or product provides higher quality at a lower cost?
I work for a municiple utility. There are several private utilities in the area, but our customers cannot choose to purchase their water or power from some other private company. We are a monopoly. We also deliver services well below the cost of the private companies in the ajoining regions. Over all, our prices are significanly lower, our service is superior (we dont answer to stock holders and ceo's with their own pockets to line, we answer to a city council and mayor who want to be re-elected) and we are more generous with our terms for payment. Our company has been rated one of the best utilities in price and service in all of California and the western United States...as well as one of the least expensive.
I think a government monolpoly can do good work for their communities. However, I dont see government education as a monopoly either. You do have choices you can make. California taxes are pretty high and I dont pay anywhere near what a private school would cost. But I could choose to send my kids to one if I wanted and could afford it. Just having the choice cancels any idea that our education system in this country is a monopoly.
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Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
| Edited by - Penyprity on 09/03/2007 13:17:39 |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 13:13:35 [Permalink]
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This is common knowledge in economic theory. This theory has been proven throughout history. This is not a debatable point.
[/quote]Theory is not fact and always debatable. Otherwise it would not be a theory. |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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Penyprity and Thoughts of Scholl Taxes
