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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 16:07:39 [Permalink]
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Jerome, I was referinng to corporate run schools, particularly publicly traded companies. Universities for the most part reinvest their profits into the school's future.
Sorry for the confusion. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:20:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I'd agree that it's not producing only smart, educated, thinking people. But I'd say that it produces at least enough. I desire more, to be sure, but again there are myriad factors that play into that, and having a completely privatized school system (participation in which is optional?) would do nothing to resolve those problems.
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The current system is producing a horrible facsimile of your desired result. According to this study things do not look so good.
| About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent. |
If these people can not even find these important places on a map what skills could they have?
My 4 year old knows were Ireland is on a world map; much less the United Kingdom. She can also find an approximate location of her town on a world map. (small town, small state)
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:23:17 [Permalink]
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Dave said:
If you are unaware of any dissent, perhaps it is not I who needs to study. |
Now I should read a book?
Sorry, I have lost the direction of our talk. Could you straighten the frame.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:30:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Penyprity
I work for a municiple utility. There are several private utilities in the area, but our customers cannot choose to purchase their water or power from some other private company. We are a monopoly. We also deliver services well below the cost of the private companies in the ajoining regions. Over all, our prices are significanly lower, our service is superior (we dont answer to stock holders and ceo's with their own pockets to line, we answer to a city council and mayor who want to be re-elected) and we are more generous with our terms for payment. Our company has been rated one of the best utilities in price and service in all of California and the western United States...as well as one of the least expensive. |
Your retail price is subsidized by the tax payers, this is not an even comparison.
I think a government monolpoly can do good work for their communities. However, I dont see government education as a monopoly either. You do have choices you can make. California taxes are pretty high and I dont pay anywhere near what a private school would cost. But I could choose to send my kids to one if I wanted and could afford it. Just having the choice cancels any idea that our education system in this country is a monopoly.
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You do know that the consumer that buys water and power from a private utility is also; thorough tax payments, paying partly for water and power for those that buy from the monopoly system?
This is the same in the school system. Those that choose to pay for private education also pay for public education.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:31:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Penyprity
Theory is not fact and always debatable. Otherwise it would not be a theory.
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Does this mean that the theory of evolution is debatable?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:46:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
If these people can not even find these important places on a map what skills could they have?
My 4 year old knows were Ireland is on a world map; much less the United Kingdom. She can also find an approximate location of her town on a world map. (small town, small state)
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This induction based on a single piece of data is quite appalling. Perhaps US education is worse than we think it is. But you have to realize that you are jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data.
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Did you look at this study?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:48:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If these people can not even find these important places on a map what skills could they have? |
Ah, geography knowledge as a litmus test for all other skills.
What is important about the location of Japan to a cariovascular surgeon in Richmond? A better question: why do you think Japan's location should be "important" knowledge?
It would be great if everyone knew a lot about everything, but in today's society specialization is required by many employers. Hell, it's quite easy to find software developers today who are wizards with computer code, but have such abyssmal communication and written English skills that they can't create a viable user's manual for their own software. Rennaisance men are becoming more and more rare. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 19:50:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Does this mean that the theory of evolution is debatable? |
It always has been. Telling bald-faced lies about the theory and the evidence - as the creationists do - isn't "debate." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2007 : 20:07:31 [Permalink]
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Men were much more likely to find Brazil than women.
Things that make you go HUMMM?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 20:09:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If these people can not even find these important places on a map what skills could they have? |
Ah, geography knowledge as a litmus test for all other skills.
What is important about the location of Japan to a cariovascular surgeon in Richmond? A better question: why do you think Japan's location should be "important" knowledge?
It would be great if everyone knew a lot about everything, but in today's society specialization is required by many employers. Hell, it's quite easy to find software developers today who are wizards with computer code, but have such abyssmal communication and written English skills that they can't create a viable user's manual for their own software. Rennaisance men are becoming more and more rare.
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Everything you wrote goes to my point that public education is used to create button pushers and not thinkers.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2007 : 20:13:53 [Permalink]
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Over 60% think that the US population is between 750 million and 2 billion.
I am half was through reading the survey and have yet to find a question that I was unsure of the correct answer.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2007 : 20:27:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Everything you wrote goes to my point that public education is used to create button pushers and not thinkers. |
The fact that you think a geography test is a useful litmus for other skill sets goes to your point that public education is used to create button pushers and not thinkers?!?
Unfortunately, Jerome, specialization barely begins in public school years. It is colleges and universities that truly create specialists.
But the real problem is one question: "will we have to know this for the final?" That's certainly not a question that public schools encourage, but it's one that's heard all the time. As soon as you can show, Jerome, that it is the goal of public schooling to instill an attitude in students wherein one is entitled to do as little work as possible but still earn top dollar, then I'll jump right on the bandwagon with you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 14:10:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Men were much more likely to find Brazil than women.
Things that make you go HUMMM?
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Aye, and we Brazilian girls seem to be quite able to find their wallets, too... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:03:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Everything you wrote goes to my point that public education is used to create button pushers and not thinkers. |
'Cause nothing says original thinking and problem-solving like knowing where Rwanda is on a map, or which country in Asia had an earthquake that killed 70,000 people in 2005. |
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Penyprity and Thoughts of Scholl Taxes
