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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2007 : 02:34:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Jerome, I know you sometimes like to just throw things out for discussion, and other times really want a debate. I'm not clear what you want here. Is this just idle chatter, or are you really making an argument?
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I thought this would be an interesting topic for a talk with a perspective I have never heard from concerning the relationship between religion and drugs.
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I see. Well, it's certainly an interesting topic, though I doubt that either early Christianity or Judaism much that was based on drugs (besides wine...)
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From those lands that gave us hashish and opium? C'mon now....
I would be willing to wager a pretty sum that these drugs were used frequently for both ceremony and medicine, and the odd party as well, people being what they are. Also, there were cultures other than Jews and and their Christian offspring in the area.
Closer to home, our aboriginal peoples commonly used peyote (a cactus), datura (jimson or 'loco' weed), Psilocybe cubensis (a mushroom), the afore-mentioned fly agaric, and just about anything else that would bend the mind including some pretty rank, alcoholic homebrews. The Apache tiswin comes to mind and later, tequila had it's genesis with the distilling of a beer made, if I am not mistaken, from the one of the aguava cacti.
These were important in religious ceremonies and healings, and not a little in diplomatic negotiations. These people were not the slavering savages Hollywood & some idiot writers, and even a few historians, have made them out to be, so picture, if you will, elder representatives of two tribes sitting around a ceremonial fire negotiating perhaps a territorial dispute. They pass the pipe, or a bowl of laced beverage, and soon all concerned are mildly high & mellow, and there is now a good chance that a fair compromise can be reached without undue mayhem, which would do neither party any good. Thinking about it, our so-called diplomats today might try this.
It is indeed a fascinating topic. A couple of years ago, I researched it a bit with an article in mind. Nothing came of it, but I learned a little. And yes, if you must know, I've done some of it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/10/2007 15:42:52 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2007 : 07:08:17 [Permalink]
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Our knowledge of Mesopotamian flora is limited, particularly when assigning words we know refer to some plant or other to the actual plant. However, I can think of nothing in Akkadian or Sumerian that we can even tentatively assign to, say, marijuana or some other mind-altering drug. I can't even think of something in Hebrew, though I'm hardly a walking dictionary of any of these languages.
Just now checking, there is a plant that is attested solely in a lexical list called kanipanu, which sort of sounds like cannabis, but who knows? I see that the wiki suggests "[i]t may be of Semitic origin," noting the a Hebrew word. I'm skeptical, however.
To be sure, nothing in Mesopotamian receipts or merchant accounts suggests that there was any amount of buying or selling of hallucinogenic drugs. It may be that such plants were grown on a smaller, private scale. However, reference of such things never comes up in letters, or even, to my knowledge, in narrative or wisdom literature.
In the Levant, of course, we have less written documentation. People may have been going to raves and 'shrooming every weekend and it's not clear how much of that we'd know from the available evidence.
I suppose in central Asia, it would me more likely. But in southwest Asia, I'm not convinced. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 08:10:17 [Permalink]
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Little has changed over the centuries, has it?
Not suprising, really. Most of this stuff would have been the province of shamen/priests/healers and the like. These folks have always played their cards pretty close to the vest lest the unwashed rabble begin to assume their 'powers.' I think it might be likely that they sent acolytes on trade caravans to replenish stocks, or out into the field to find what they needed. That's assuming that they didn't grow their own (cannibis and/or poppy. Dunno what mushrooms might have been avaiable in the area).
You might check local laws to see if their were any prohibitions on certain plants.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 11:31:43 [Permalink]
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Got curious and Wikied it: History
Evidence of the inhalation of cannabis smoke can be found as far back as the Neolithic age, as indicated by charred cannabis seeds found in a ritual brazier at an ancient burial site in present day Romania.[4] The most famous users of cannabis were the ancient Hindus of India and Nepal, and the Hashshashins (hashish eaters) of present day Syria. The herb was called ganjika in Sanskrit (ganja in modern Indian and Nepali languages).[6][7] The ancient drug soma, mentioned in the Vedas as a sacred intoxicating hallucinogen, was sometimes associated with cannabis.
Cannabis was also known to the Assyrians, who discovered its psychoactive properties through the Aryans.[9] Using it in some religious ceremonies, they called it qunubu (meaning "way to produce smoke"), a probable origin ofthe modern word.[10] Cannabis was also introduced by the Aryans to the Scythians and Thracians/Dacians, whose shamans (the kapnobatai—“those who walk on smoke/clouds”) burned cannabis flowers to induce a state of trance.[11] Members of the cult of Dionysus, believed to have originated in Thrace, are also thought to have inhaled cannabis smoke. In 2003, a leather basket filled with cannabis leaf fragments and seeds was found next to a 2,500- to 2,800-year-old mummified shaman in the northwestern Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region of China.[12][13]
Cannabis has an ancient history of ritual use and is found in pharmacological cults around the world. Hemp seeds discovered by archaeologists at Pazyryk suggest early ceremonial practices like eating by the Scythians occurred during the 5th to 2nd century BCE, confirming previous historical reports by Herodotus.[14] Some historians and etymologists have claimed that cannabis was used as a religious sacrament by ancient Jews and early Christians.[15] It was also used by Muslims in various Sufi orders as early as the Mamluk period, for example by the Qalandars.[16] In India and Nepal, it has been used by some of the wandering spiritual sadhus for centuries, and in modern times the Rastafari movement has embraced it as a sacrament.[17] Elders of the modern religious movement known as the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church consider cannabis to be the Eucharist, claiming it as an oral tradition from Ethiopia dating back to the time of Christ, even though the movement was founded in the United States in 1975 and has no ties to either Ethiopia or the Coptic Church.[18] Like the Rastafari, some modern Gnostic Christian sects have asserted that cannabis is the Tree of Life.[19][20] Other organized religions founded in the past century that treat cannabis as a sacrament are the THC Ministry,[21] the Way of Infinite Harmony, Cantheism,[22] the Cannabis Assembly[23] and the Church of Cognizance.
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I have heard it said that if cannabis were discovered today, it would be hailed as a wonder drug.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 12:25:55 [Permalink]
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Well, the wiki is perhaps a bit over-enthusiastic to call qunnabu cannabis. The Assyrian Dictionary conservatively offers "an aromatic" though they do note that it was "possibly the seed or flower of hemp."
The wiki definition of the word as "meaning 'way to produce smoke' is completely made up, though I don't have access to the reference given for this.
The term shows up exclusively in the first millennium. I see one reference for a recipe for a perfume which tells the reader, "you steep the qunnabu [in water], (and) sprinkle it (presumably the water steeped with the qunnabu?) on me."
Now, I know that dried Cannabis has a nice aroma, so perhaps a water infused with it would make a sort of perfume. But it seems to me that the only reason to even suggest that this aromatic is actually cannabis is because of the Gleichklang-- the similar sound-- between "qunnabu" on the one hand and "cannabis" on the other.
Note, though, that in several Persian-period texts, it appears as a female personal name.
So I guess what we can say from the available evidence is that if qunnabu=cannabis, then it was a late introduction into Mesopotamia, and its use as a drug is not immediately clear in the available data. I think... |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 12:38:04 [Permalink]
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| I'm not convinced any ancient peoples used it, otherwise the Twinkie and/or Doritos would have been invented ages ago. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2007 : 15:41:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
I'm not convinced any ancient peoples used it, otherwise the Twinkie and/or Doritos would have been invented ages ago.
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Indeed! 
Here's another time line:
Timeline: the use of cannabis
Cannabis has been used by humans for food, textiles, trading and medicine for thousands of years.
Below is an account of this relationship.
The first written medicinal use of cannabis goes back to 2727BC
6000BC Cannabis seeds used for food in China.
4000BC Textiles made of hemp are used in China.
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And so forth unto the present day.
Psychoactive mushrooms, on the other hand, seem to be primarly if not exclusively, a New World item. Hallucinogenic mushrooms have been part of human culture as far back as the earliest recorded history. Ancient paintings of mushroom-ed humanoids dating to 5,000 B.C. have been found in caves on the Tassili plateau of Northern Algeria. Central and Southern America cultures built temples to mushroom gods and carved "mushroom stones". These stone carvings in the shape of mushrooms, or in which figures are depicted under the cap of a mushroom, have been dated to as early as 1000-500 B.C. The purpose of the sculptures is not certain, but they may have been religious objects.
The Mixtec culture of central Mexico worshipped many gods, one known as Piltzintecuhtli, or 7 Flower (his name presented in the pictoral language as seven circles and a flower) who was the god for hallucinatory plants, especially the divine mushroom. The Vienna Codex (or Codex Vindobonensis) (ca 13th-15th century) depicts the ritual use of mushrooms by the Mixtec gods, showing Piltzintecuhtli and 7 other gods holding mushrooms in their hands.
The Aztec people had a closely related god of sacred psychoactive plants. Xochipilli, Prince of Flowers, was the divine patron of "the flowery dream" as the Aztecs called the ritual hallucinatory trance. The Aztecs used a number of plant hallucinogens including psilocybian mushrooms (teonanácatl), morning glory seeds (tlilitzin), Salvia divinorum, Datura (tlapatl or toloache) , Peyote (peyotl), and mixitl grain. Psilocybian mushrooms were used in ritual and ceremony, served with honey or chocolate at some of their holiest events.1 |
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2007 : 18:22:30 [Permalink]
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What does everyone think about the similarities in the forum of this particular mushroom and Christian symbols?
Saint Nicholas is after all a Saint.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 18:24:09 [Permalink]
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Could this be the Holy Grail?
| Amanita muscaria the Holy Grail. Long associated with the Flesh of the God in Religious Sacraments. The Grail cup holding the blood of the God (juices) is an obvious analogy. Note the look of the fully grown specimen. The Imagery of a cup or fountain are some of the more pronounced Symbols used to keep the “Secret” understanding of the true nature of the sacrament for the “Elite”. |
Things that make you think.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2007 : 18:28:04 [Permalink]
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This is apropos:
The Little People
Often associated with Gnomes, Fairies and “Little People” The beauty of this mushroom makes it a favorite for artists. The Mystical aspect is generally reserved for those that happen to be “In The Know”. |
Same link as above.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 09:44:46 [Permalink]
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| What does everyone think about the similarities in the forum of this particular mushroom and Christian symbols? |
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 11:34:59 [Permalink]
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As someone who has taken certain products in the past, I can say for certain that these drugs undoubtedly have played a part in every major religion at some point(on a small level). Each drug while labed "hallucinogen" has very different effects, not to mention the differnt effects caused by large doses of any of them.
LSD, is usually found mixed with amphetamines, which can be as much of a problem as the LSD itself, for me there is a tipping point from cohertantly enjoying the trip to total loss of control/bad trip... It is very easy to get one silly idea in your head and fixate on it. If someone were to casually say "Oh that's crazy" in an innocent context, the tripper could then fixate on the idea of actually going insane.
Mescaline, is a more calming drug which I never took in a significant quantity. I found it far less intense and frightening than LSD could be. I never really hallucinated on either drug, for me its more of a body buzz and a change in the way of thinking that occurs.
NEVER LISTEN TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT DRUGS, YOUR FRIENDS ARE DUMBASSES, I was taken to the hospital as a teen for jimson weed posioning, and nearly died(my friends heart stopped before being revived). The seeds of this common weed are ingested and produce strange effects besides hallucination, including blackouts, heat flashes and severe vertigo. During the event they tried to get me to put my shoes on to leave and I remember talking with them for a long time and could not figure out why they kept repeating everything....I was only talking in my head appearntly. I was blacked out for 8+ hours during which I was awake and incoherant.
I witnessed 3 people take a drug called mandrake root which they had soaked into some vodka, this was a very scary drug and Im very thankful my dumb ass was smart enough to say no. This drug causes severe hallucinations and a belief that what you are seeing is actually happening (this is very unusual for hallucinogens at small doses) my friend was petting a shoelace he thought was a snake...
One of the individuals fled the apartment and was missing for 3 days, he had driven himself to the hospital and checked himself in for radiation posioning, from the alien ray guns. They soft roomed him for awhile.
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While I learned my lesson, one of my good friends went down the road to ruin becoming addicted to everything he could get his hands on, I had to babysit him on more than one occasion so that he would not walk into traffic.
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Back on the topic at hand, I can imagine that taking of these drugs in unregulated doses with no knowledge of brain functions and chemicals, would easily lead to connections with whatever religion was in play. What else could it be to them? Also many people would also ingest these things with no knowledge that they were about to be intoxicated, this type of event could be incredably frightning and would certainly be a 'religious' experience, the Salem witch problem comes to mind, an event which led to the deaths of those who accidentaly took the drugs. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 12:20:32 [Permalink]
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| On an amusing side note, my parents were post-hippie-hippies, but thankfully they were uncreative. If my first name was Ellis, I would be named Ellis D. Tripp. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 12:24:08 [Permalink]
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There is some thought in favor of ergot of rye, also called "St Anthony's Fire," being at least part of cause of the Salem atrocity. They are said to have had a contaminated grain harvest that had everyone hallucinating.
This fungus raised billy hell in the Middle Ages, but mostly among the serfs, as rye was considered as too coarse for nobility. Accusations of demon posession were fairly common because of it. It's with us today, occasionally showing up in livestock feed.
I don't know of anyone using this micro-'shroom for ceremonial purposes nor even recreation, but it would be a doozy!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 13:16:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
| What does everyone think about the similarities in the forum of this particular mushroom and Christian symbols? |
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Oddly enough, that is what magic mushroom typically grow on around my neck of the woods (not that I would know anything about that). |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Religon and Magic Mushrooms
