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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2007 : 20:09:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Skeptics realize that not everything weird is tinfoil hat stuff. Some conspiracies can be real, and can be documented. Hell, 9/11 was a conspiracy, just not a domestic, "insider" one.
Blackwater itself exists, is controlled by a billionaire Republican fundy, and is dangerous as shit. Here's more on Blackwater.
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In what sense is it dangerous?
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1) They are for the most part uncontrolled by US authorities, especially under the protective overview of their political allies in the Bush administration. Wiki says in its Blackwater article: "At least 90% of its revenue comes from government contracts, two-thirds of which are no-bid contracts." Wiki also says: | In 2006, Blackwater won the remunerative contract to protect the U.S. embassy in Iraq, which is the largest American embassy in the world. It is estimated by the Pentagon and company representatives that there are 20,000 to 30,000 armed security contractors working in Iraq, and some estimates are as much as 100,000, though no official figures exist. |
2) They are not subject to the US code of military justice, or to command by US forces. (See Chris Hedges' "What if our mercenaries turn on us?") One quote from that article: | Mercenary forces like Blackwater operate beyond civilian and military law. They are covered by a 2004 edict passed by American occupation authorities in Iraq that immunizes all civilian contractors in Iraq from prosecution. |
From the Washington Post:| "These guys run loose in this country and do stupid stuff. There's no authority over them, so you can't come down on them hard when they escalate force," said Brig. Gen. Karl R. Horst, deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, which is responsible for security in and around Baghdad. "They shoot people, and someone else has to deal with the aftermath. It happens all over the place." |
3) They are not accountable to local authority, as has been just now demonstrated in Iraq.
4) They can be huge forces, like Blackwater, which trains with advanced arms on US soil.
5) Controlled by people on the political extreme, the potential for being used on American streets remains a real threat. They have already been employed, at taxpayer expense, on the streets of America, in New Orleans after Katrina. In my opinion, any private army on US soil poses, by its very nature, a threat to democracy.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/22/2007 01:55:23 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 20:43:35 [Permalink]
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And now: Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled weapons into Iraq that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.
. . .
The News & Observer, citing unidentified sources, reported that the probe was looking at whether Blackwater had shipped unlicensed automatic weapons and military goods to Iraq without a license.
The paper's report that the company itself was under investigation could not be confirmed by the AP.
According to officials in Washington, the investigation grew from internal Pentagon and State Department inquiries into U.S. weapons that had gone missing in Iraq.
It gained steam after Turkish authorities protested to the U.S. in July that they had seized American arms from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, rebels.
The Turks provided serial numbers of the weapons to U.S. investigators, said a Turkish official. |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 05:17:51 [Permalink]
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| Blackwater doesn't even have the largest mercenary contract in Iraq...a British Company named Aegis is. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/22/2007 05:21:50 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 05:46:16 [Permalink]
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Thanks, pleco! I hadn't known that. I had checked out two other big US-based merc outfits that operate in Iraq, and they also have had scandals. I suppose that essentially just being a gang of professional killers-for-hire makes it almost certain that scandal will always be close at hand.
Another thing I read is that the general Iraqi public, when they see unaccountable actions of these mercs, blames their actions on the US military. Not exactly good for PR,
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 06:49:08 [Permalink]
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Mercenaries are scum and Blackwater et al. is no different.
But that's not important at the moment. What is important is that the facade of being "liberators" slipped away when Blackwater was not removed per Iraqi request. Now we are seen for what we really are: an occupying force bent upon conquest, ie: Iraq's oil reserves.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 07:24:43 [Permalink]
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Another problem with mercenaries is this one: Feds Target Blackwater in Weapons Probe
By MATTHEW LEE
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.
The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, N.C., is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. Blackwater is based in Moyock, N.C.
A spokeswoman for Blackwater did not return calls seeking comment Friday. The U.S. attorney for the eastern district of North Carolina, George Holding, declined to comment, as did Pentagon and State Department spokesmen.
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Not that it doesn't happen in regular armies, but historically mercenaries have had greater freedom and resources to do it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 18:43:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Skeptics realize that not everything weird is tinfoil hat stuff. Some conspiracies can be real, and can be documented. Hell, 9/11 was a conspiracy, just not a domestic, "insider" one.
Blackwater itself exists, is controlled by a billionaire Republican fundy, and is dangerous as shit. Here's more on Blackwater.
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In what sense is it dangerous?
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1) They are for the most part uncontrolled by US authorities, especially under the protective overview of their political allies in the Bush administration. Wiki says in its Blackwater article: "At least 90% of its revenue comes from government contracts, two-thirds of which are no-bid contracts." Wiki also says: | In 2006, Blackwater won the remunerative contract to protect the U.S. embassy in Iraq, which is the largest American embassy in the world. It is estimated by the Pentagon and company representatives that there are 20,000 to 30,000 armed security contractors working in Iraq, and some estimates are as much as 100,000, though no official figures exist. |
2) They are not subject to the US code of military justice, or to command by US forces. (See Chris Hedges' "What if our mercenaries turn on us?") One quote from that article: | Mercenary forces like Blackwater operate beyond civilian and military law. They are covered by a 2004 edict passed by American occupation authorities in Iraq that immunizes all civilian contractors in Iraq from prosecution. |
From the Washington Post:| "These guys run loose in this country and do stupid stuff. There's no authority over them, so you can't come down on them hard when they escalate force," said Brig. Gen. Karl R. Horst, deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, which is responsible for security in and around Baghdad. "They shoot people, and someone else has to deal with the aftermath. It happens all over the place." |
3) They are not accountable to local authority, as has been just now demonstrated in Iraq.
4) They can be huge forces, like Blackwater, which trains with advanced arms on US soil.
5) Controlled by people on the political extreme, the potential for being used on American streets remains a real threat. They have already been employed, at taxpayer expense, on the streets of America, in New Orleans after Katrina. In my opinion, any private army on US soil poses, by its very nature, a threat to democracy.
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It seems to me you extrapolate a lot further than the evidence you have. For example, you show Backwaters profitability and connections to the administration as evidence that they're uncontrolled. That doesn't follow, at least not without further evidence.
Then you claim the Iraqi governments recent decision not to remove them as evidence that they're not accountable at all to local authority, which is quite a jump.
And finally, you take the owner's politics as evidence that the individual people of Blackwater could potentially become a private army, which is ludicrous. It's the stuff of conspiracy woo-wooism.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 19:48:58 [Permalink]
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Mycroft wrote: It seems to me you extrapolate a lot further than the evidence you have. For example, you show Backwaters profitability and connections to the administration as evidence that they're uncontrolled. That doesn't follow, at least not without further evidence.
Then you claim the Iraqi governments recent decision not to remove them as evidence that they're not accountable at all to local authority, which is quite a jump.
And finally, you take the owner's politics as evidence that the individual people of Blackwater could potentially become a private army, which is ludicrous. It's the stuff of conspiracy woo-wooism. |
A mercenary army getting rich off no-bid contracts from its buddies at our expense may not bother you, but it seems a very clear problem to me. When anyone gets those kind of favors, you gotta wonder how diligently they're being kept on the leash.
So far, though they mow are making sounds about prosecuting, the Iraqi regime hasn't even been able to shut down Blackwater's operation for longer that a few days. That's hard for them to do, when the US authorities, which keep the regime in power, oppose banning Blackwater depite their excesses. No, clearly so far the evidence is that Blackwater is indeed not responsible to Iraqi authority, though that might possibly change. (I suspect Blackwater's already gotten the shooters out of country by now.) Any apparent controlling authority would seem be that of Blackwater over the US authority.
On your last point: Blackwater already is a "private army." That's what mercenary bands are. What else are they? School marms?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/23/2007 19:53:02 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2007 : 10:26:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
A mercenary army getting rich off no-bid contracts from its buddies at our expense may not bother you, but it seems a very clear problem to me. |
Whoa, now. You're extrapolating way beyond the evidence again.
If any business is getting rich off of no-bid contracts then that suggests the possibility of corruption, which is a concern. However the issue isn't about what concerns me, but what justifies your allegation of *danger.*
Originally posted by HalfMooner
When anyone gets those kind of favors, you gotta wonder how diligently they're being kept on the leash. |
No, not really.
If a business is getting favors, then that suggests there may be corruption, but it doesn't itself suggest they're not being "kept on the leash."
Originally posted by HalfMooner
So far, though they mow are making sounds about prosecuting, the Iraqi regime hasn't even been able to shut down Blackwater's operation for longer that a few days. |
That assumes they want to shut them down. Iraqi institutions also benefit from Blackwater security. If Iraq got rid of them, then they would have to deal with the issue of who would replace them.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
That's hard for them to do, when the US authorities, which keep the regime in power, oppose banning Blackwater depite their excesses. |
Being involved in a gunfight is not itself evidence of excesses, one expects that if you hire men with guns that those men might use those guns.
Even if it were, banning the organization isn't the only possible redress. Such thinking exhibits the fallacy of the excluded middle.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
No, clearly so far the evidence is that Blackwater is indeed not responsible to Iraqi authority, though that might possibly change. (I suspect Blackwater's already gotten the shooters out of country by now.) Any apparent controlling authority would seem be that of Blackwater over the US authority. |
Pure conjecture.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
On your last point: Blackwater already is a "private army." That's what mercenary bands are. What else are they? School marms? |
Having 40,000 employees with military experience who provide security in various places around the world is not the same thing as having a private army.
You seem to suggest that because Eric Prince is a fundy Christian that we should worry that someday he's going to take his 40,000 employees and seize control of Washington.
But that's the stuff of conspiracy woo. It's no more likely than saying Bill Gates is going to take his 40,000 employees and seize control of the internet. Just because someone is your employee, doesn't mean they're going to do everything you tell them to do no matter how outrageous.
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Blackwater mercenaries banned by Iraq regime
