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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 12:14:01 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: | And if I am not mistaken, the only living being on this planet that has the ability to have sexual intercourse face to face, and has the ability, and the desire, to share affection in this, the most commonly used of positions. |
According to the book The Orangutans by Gisela Kaplan and Lesley Rogers, starting on page 122: The sexual act, and the lead-up to it, finds no equivalent in the sexual behavior of other primates, except in bonobos (pygmy chimpanzees) and in humans. There are several unusual aspects of the sexual act among orangutans (and bonobos) as compared with the common chimpanzee and the gorilla. Male gorillas and male chimpanzees mount their females from behind. Orangutans (and bonobos sometimes) mate face-to-face. There is usually no foreplay involved with the other great apes (gorilla and chimpanzees), although sexual intercourse is initiated by females in almost half of all mating observed in chimpanzees. In these species, mating is a brief affair, lasting only a few seconds and barely interrupts the male's vigilance in keeping order and control in his troupe.
Orangutan sexual intercourse is very different. It is an all-absorbing activity. First, there is extensive foreplay, which is unhurried and measured. Advances are made that may involve sitting next to each other and casually touching the body of the other. Subadult males have been observed to put their arms around the female and to touch the face of the other and the region of the ear with their lips. Unless she actively solicits, which does happen,. Her passive behavior shows at least a lack of protest. Part of the sexual foreplay includes the male licking the female genitalia and fondling the anogenital region.
Among nonhuman primates, the orangutan is the only one to practice sex exclusively in the front position
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The time taken by orangutans for copulation is the longest among nonhuman primates, equal in length only to that of humans. The average copulation time in the Tanjung Putting area was observed to be about ten minutes, ranging from three minutes to half an hour in the wild and even longer in captivity. Do orangutans experience orgasm? The answer may well be that they do. Females have been known to scream toward or at the end of the copulatory bout, suggesting that she has at least experienced an orgasmic sensation. We know that these particular screams do not occur at any other time and are hence strongly associated with intercourse. |
| Humans in SF start out as male and end up as female all the time. Does not mean they achieved this naturally, nor does it put them on par with the largemouth bass. |
From the wikipedia entry on Hermaphrodite: | Generally, hermaphroditism occurs in the invertebrates, although it occurs in a fair number of fish, and to a lesser degree in other vertebrates. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite
Beyond hermaphroditism, there are many other and more common genetic abnormalities that confuse sex and/or gender in humans. People with androgen insensitivity syndrome often appear female in every way but have male genes and intern |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/29/2007 12:14:49 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 12:21:44 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: | But why would all these millions of people be so turned off by homosexuality if it was such the natural thing to do? |
I'd bet the vast majority of people are significantly turned off by the idea of two really old people having sex. And old enough people can't procreate. Does that make sex after menopause, or the use of pills to cure impotence brought on by aging unnatural and wrong too? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2007 : 12:52:56 [Permalink]
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Yeah, and many dogs will hump a tree until the heifers come home. It shows the dog will result to natural, or unnatural, means to try and relieve his urges.
And if I am not mistaken, the only living being on this planet that has the ability to have sexual intercourse face to face, and has the ability, and the desire, to share affection in this, the most commonly used of positions. |
What difference does that make? Did you open the link I provided?
Porcupines. So what? Humans in SF start out as male and end up as female all the time. Does not mean they achieved this naturally, nor does it put them on par with the largemouth bass.
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Now you're being ridiculous. I tossed the fish in as merely something interesting if only very distantly related. Unless, of course, you think I'm wrong about that and sex change doesn't happen except surgically.... I'll be happy to argue that in a new thread.Why would you ever take the procreation equation out of it? Obviously, the procreation equation is the most important part of the sexual experience. This is what proliferates the species.
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In case you hadn't noticed Bill, sex is fun. Lots of fun. It feels good and makes cigarette tobacco afterward actually taste good. Everybody wants sex, but how many want a blizzard of squalling brats children running around the house when a couple or so is plenty? Would you have contraception banned as well? People risk their lives all the time to have the kind of sex they want to have. People have unprotected sex with multiple partners, all the time knowing they are playing Russian roulette with their lives and heath.
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Diseases & so forth are a craps shoot, but pretty much preventable with prophylactics. But would you risk certain hanging for it? | But why would all these millions of people be so turned off by homosexuality if it was such the natural thing to do? To many it is no different then the sight of a dog humping a tree, or worse, their leg. It is disgusting and not right. And that is why you have to force yourself to get over the hebe-jebe's that it gives you. |
Now we're getting back into the cultural thing. It has been perfectly acceptable to cultures such as the ancient Greeks and, 'loobi, correct me if I'm wrong, some actually had army units comprised of homosexuals. The idea was that they'd fight harder if their lovers were at risk with them. Interesting, no? I think, but am not sure, that some Arab kingdoms had homosexual military units as well. Something called the Janissaries(sp?), if what I've read is correct.
The long and short of it is that culture shapes the individual. The times I grew up in were quite a bit different from todays. I recall the furor that Christine Jorgenson caused. Also Gorgeous George, the professional wrestler, who did the gay bit and was roundly despised for it. And Li |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2007 : 13:36:14 [Permalink]
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Got curious as to the state of the research on this and so just for the hell of it, I looked around a bit. The fact is that nothing has been locked down either way, but the the evidence in favor of genetics grows. Hereza link. It is very interesting.
Another one, even more interesting.
But to be fair & balanced  , here's a take from the other side.
Giggity-giggity-giggity-goo!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/29/2007 13:42:17 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 13:57:05 [Permalink]
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| Don't forget David and Jonathan.... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 13:59:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Kil
I mean, would you vote for a gay politician Bill? Republican or not?
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No. But as a legal voter that is my right. I will be mad as heck if the candidate I vote for purposely deceived me just for the vote. As I am sure you would be too.
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So... being gay is a deal-breaker for you. 
I'll try not to hold it against you in future discussions.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 14:28:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Man on man and women on women sex produces nothing but ultimate despair. |
I've been told that both man on man sex and woman on woman sex is wonderful, enjoyable, and emotionally bonding. That seems to be contrary to what you say.
Do you have personal experinece that man on man sex produces nothing but despair? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 16:39:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I have given up on titles for politicians. Look at Craig, he played the role of family man and completely denies being one bit homosexual, in light of contradicting evidence. Are we really to believe that he is the only one who cloaks himself as something he is not, from either side of the isle? And, yes, this applies to the pubs who preach family values. I am sure there are cons among them as well. |
Way to miss the point, Bill. There do exist people who share every bit of your politics, regardless of the labels, but who are gay. And I'm getting the distinct impression that you'd vote for someone somewhat more liberal if those were your only choices.| Then you can see why I have a big problem with Craig. |
Yes.| And I would assume that you do as well. |
No, I probably wouldn't have voted for him because he's an idiot.| Oh please, GWB pushes for the legislation that defines marriages as between a man and women. He does so based on his beliefs about homosexuality. |
I agree. I was giving you more credit than I would ever give to that moron (for whom I didn't vote). I said that if I were to vote for you, Bill, it would be because you displayed an understanding that Bush obviously lacks. That you haven't yet displayed that understanding is okay, you have time before 2012, and I'm patient.| Without even debating the homosexual agenda I wound find it to be a remote chance that I would vote for a open one as I seem to agree very little with the homosexuals that I know and with the known homosexuals already in office. |
I don't think you've looked very hard. I'm going to guess that the Log Cabin Republicans are too liberal for your tastes, but there are other people. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2007 : 05:56:43 [Permalink]
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So, to sum up, sex can only be used for pro-creation. Any sex that does not lead to pro-creation is unnatural and therefore immoral. This includes oral and masturbation, as well as birth control.
That sound about right? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 08:01:18 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by marfknox |
I don't have much free time so my time here is limited. I like to respond to as many different folks as I can as well. Plus I was under the impression this was a talk forum and not a venue where term papers are passed back and forth. As a result I will have to keep my response to a minimum
| According to the book The Orangutans by Gisela Kaplan and Lesley Rogers, starting on page 122: |
Interesting. I'll have to take a look at this.
Because a couple is unable to procreate naturally, or because they don't want to and so they use protection does not negate the fact that a man and women having sex, but not producing children because of failed mechanics or protection, is still a man and women having sex as it was intended by the creator. Whether that creator be a deity or NS.
The fact remains, man on women sex is the only natural was to produce children, just as intended. And yes, procreation is the main and most important effect of sexual relations. Yes, your sexual experiences with your husband might bring you some pleasure a few minutes at a time, maybe a few times week or whatever. But this is no more then a personal experience for you and has no benefit on the preservation of the species, the main and most important reason for sexual relations, whatever your worldview.
| Obviously, the procreation equation is the most important part of the sexual experience. |
You are making a statement of subjective value. I certainly don't think that procreation is the most important part of the sexual experience since I don't plan on procreating, but I do have sex. |
But that is just your opinion. People can live in sexual bliss and utopia their whole lives, great for them. But if no procreation ever results from this sex then the species dies off, period.
| If you are speaking about sex in a general sense, I'd agree that the main biological function of sex is procreation. |
Not only the main, but the most important part.
| But that hardly makes it the most important, which again, is a value judgment, opposed to a biological fact. |
I disagree. Sex strictly for pleasure may bring temporary utopia for the individual but results in a dead end for the species if this is the most important function in the whole of things. Procreation is the main and most important function of sexual intercourse and which preserves the species. In NS it is far more important for the survival of the species then each individuals sexual happiness and satisfaction.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 08:28:42 [Permalink]
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The Heebie Jeebies is a well studied psychological phenomenon that happens when one falls in love.
While the sufferer is genetically predisposed to the jeebies, each occurrence is a direct result of jazz music. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 08:47:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Now we're getting back into the cultural thing. It has been perfectly acceptable to cultures such as the ancient Greeks and, 'loobi, correct me if I'm wrong, some actually had army units comprised of homosexuals. The idea was that they'd fight harder if their lovers were at risk with them. Interesting, no? I think, but am not sure, that some Arab kingdoms had homosexual military units as well. Something called the Janissaries(sp?), if what I've read is correct. |
I have no idea if anyone had military units comprised of gays. I seem to recall it was common for Greek warriors to have sexual relationships with young boys - shield bearers / apprentices or something. There were prohibitions on how they had sex - the warriors did not receive sexually, they only gave as it was considered feminine and/or demeaning to be penetrated. But the warriors were not strictly homosexual - more like bisexual. I believe they had wives and children and such. This is all hazy memory though and I don't have any sources to post.
| The long and short of it is that culture shapes the individual. |
I agree and believe this is true more than most people are comfortable thinking. I believe people have far less free will than we like to believe. Culture sets pretty strict parameters beyond which it makes people uncomfortable or miserable to go. I think it often never occurs to people to go beyond said boundries, they are so subtle yet firm.
| As it is being shown to be genetic, that is: the individual has no choice in the matter, any & all denials are becoming little more than pissing into the wind. |
Based only on seeing the film, didn't Kinsey identify (more or less empirically) degrees of homosexuality? I think there were six levels from straight as an arrow to gay as, well, Richard Simmons. And everything in between.
I think for gays that are rock solid gay, they are certainly genetically predetermined. But those that are easily bi- . . . I'm not so sure. My experience is that nothing in biology and culture is so simple within a species with complex behavior as genes determine said behavior in all cases.
Frankly it doesn't matter to me how much choice is involved anyway - people ought to be able to make decisions about their own sexuality freely and privately, so long as no one else is unreasonably harmed. All other wrinkles aside, the fact that we are even discussing whether Craig committed hypocracy is essentially anti-Freedom, anti-American IMO. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 10/01/2007 08:52:00 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 09:44:13 [Permalink]
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The Greeks did have homosexual couples in their military and the elite Sacred Band of Thebes was composed entirely of gay couples. The reaoning was that each man would fight fiercely to protect his lover and would not ant to discrace himself in front of his lover.
They were wiped by Philip of Macedon's army when they stood and fought while the rest of the Theban army fled. Philip of Macedon said | Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly |
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
| Edited by - Ghost_Skeptic on 10/01/2007 10:16:29 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 12:59:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic
The Greeks did have homosexual couples in their military and the elite Sacred Band of Thebes was composed entirely of gay couples. The reaoning was that each man would fight fiercely to protect his lover and would not ant to discrace himself in front of his lover.
They were wiped by Philip of Macedon's army when they stood and fought while the rest of the Theban army fled. Philip of Macedon said | Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly |
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That is all fine and dandy, however, it still does not change the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Both of which homosexuality is diametrically opposed. In short, this was never intended to ever fit into that, and this is rather self-evident when one can put their emotional involvement aside while looking at the human anatomy.
MARF could not have said it any better. In order to except this notion that human homosexuality is just an equal and normal alternative to human heterosexuality one must first overlook the biological mechanics and sexual reproduction of humans. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 10/01/2007 13:01:56 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 13:08:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
That is all fine and dandy, however, it still does not change the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Both of which homosexuality is diametrically opposed. In short, this was never intended to ever fit into that, and this is rather self-evident when one can put their emotional involvement aside while looking at the human anatomy.
MARF could not have said it any better. In order to except this notion that human homosexuality is just an equal and normal alternative to human heterosexuality one must first overlook the biological mechanics and sexual reproduction of humans.
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Bill, please try to move beyond such simplistic reasoning. Reality is rarely so simple or black and white. Beyond your trivial observation that "this was never intended to ever fit into that," realize that evolution works on populations, not individuals. No, the species could not survive if 100% of the population were homosexual. However, that does not mean that it is optimal to have 100% of the population heterosexual. Can you think of any advantages to having 5-10% of the population bisexual? Or homosexual? If you can't think of any, then you are the only one who is letting their "emotional involvement" get in the way of clearly thinking about this issue.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/01/2007 13:09:56 |
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Craig returns, 1st votes against hate crime act
