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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2007 : 13:29:31 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by chaloobi |
| I have no idea if anyone had military units comprised of gays. I seem to recall it was common for Greek warriors to have sexual relationships with young boys - shield bearers / apprentices or something. There were prohibitions on how they had sex - the warriors did not receive sexually, they only gave as it was considered feminine and/or demeaning to be penetrated. But the warriors were not strictly homosexual - more like bisexual. I believe they had wives and children and such. This is all hazy memory though and I don't have any sources to post. |
That is all fine and dandy, however, it still does not change the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Both of which homosexuality is diametrically opposed. In short, this was never intended to ever fit into that, and this is rather self-evident when one can put their emotional involvement aside while looking at the human anatomy.
MARF could not have said it any better. In order to except this notion that human homosexuality is just an equal and normal alternative to human heterosexuality one must first overlook the biological mechanics and sexual reproduction of humans.
| Culture sets pretty strict parameters beyond which it makes people uncomfortable or miserable to go. I think it often never occurs to people to go beyond said boundries, they are so subtle yet firm. |
Replace culture with biological mechanics and you will be on to something here, as far as human homosexuality
As it is being shown to be genetic, that is: the individual has no choice in the matter, any & all denials are becoming little more than pissing into the wind.
Based only on seeing the film, didn't Kinsey identify (more or less empirically) degrees of homosexuality? I think there were six levels from straight as an arrow to gay as, well, Richard Simmons. And everything in between.
I think for gays that are rock solid gay, they are certainly genetically predetermined. But those that are easily bi- . . . I'm not so sure. My experience is that nothing in biology and culture is so simple within a species with complex behavior as genes determine said behavior in all cases.
Frankly it doesn't matter to me how much choice is involved anyway - people ought to be able to make decisions about their own sexuality freely and privately, so long as no one else is unreasonably harmed. |
That is all fine and dandy, however, it still does not change the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Both of which homosexuality is diametrically opposed. In short, this was never intended to ever fit into that, and this is rather self-evident when one can put their emotional involvement aside while looking at the human anatomy.
MARF could not have said it any better. In order to except this notion that human homosexuality is just an equal and normal alternative to human heterosexuality one must first overlook the biological mechanics and sexual reproduction of humans.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 13:33:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Bill, please try to move beyond such simplistic reasoning.
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In other words: Bill, please get passed the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Then you can make reality whatever you want it to be. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 13:44:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
That is all fine and dandy, however, it still does not change the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Both of which homosexuality is diametrically opposed. In short, this was never intended to ever fit into that, and this is rather self-evident when one can put their emotional involvement aside while looking at the human anatomy.
MARF could not have said it any better. In order to except this notion that human homosexuality is just an equal and normal alternative to human heterosexuality one must first overlook the biological mechanics and sexual reproduction of humans. |
Repeating yourself (three times) does not strengthen your argument.
Biological mechanics and sexual reproduction set limits for a lot of things that you're not arguing against, Bill. So why single-out homosexuality?
Also implicit in your argument is that the way things are is the way things ought to be. But by such reasoning we shouldn't be any more socially progressive than the folks who wrote down the Old Testament (and Jesus' progressive ways should have been and should continue to be shunned).
In other words, social acceptance of gay rights is in no way dependant upon their biological mechanics, anymore than social acceptance of women voters is dependant upon their breasts.
In short, whether this was ever intended to fit into that is immaterial to whether or not you, Bill, should be man enough to say, "hey, it's not something I'd get into, but if they want to, it's their choice." After all, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 14:02:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Bill, please try to move beyond such simplistic reasoning.
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In other words: Bill, please get passed the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Then you can make reality whatever you want it to be.
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No, just that in reality, nature does not operate as neatly or as tidy as a children's fairy tale, so please stop treating it as such. As I've said, in the real world in which you and I live, evolution acts on populations, not individuals. So any time you fail to speak in such terms, you aren't dealing with reality. So it is you who aren't dealing with the facts, and I simply tried to get you to acknowledge that.
However, I see you simple cut out the substantive portions of my last post. I guess that means you cannot address my points and aren't interested in facts.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 14:35:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Originally posted by Bill
That is all fine and dandy, however, it still does not change the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Both of which homosexuality is diametrically opposed. In short, this was never intended to ever fit into that, and this is rather self-evident when one can put their emotional involvement aside while looking at the human anatomy. |
Evolution is full of examples of things which were never intended, but produced beneficial results none the less. One example is fish developing bone, then needing less structural support for gills, and so some support developed into teeth as it was free to mutate.
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That is fine. But at the current moment evolution still has sexual repeoduction through a man and women only. And man on man sex is only acomlished through the placing of a square peg in a round hole. It will work if it is forced but, obviously, is not the intent. And most times the results are disasterious. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 14:39:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Bill, please try to move beyond such simplistic reasoning.
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In other words: Bill, please get passed the cold hard facts of biological mechanics and sexual reproduction. Then you can make reality whatever you want it to be.
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No, just that in reality, nature does not operate as neatly or as tidy as a children's fairy tale, so please stop treating it as such. As I've said, in the real world in which you and I live, evolution acts on populations, not individuals. So any time you fail to speak in such terms, you aren't dealing with reality. So it is you who aren't dealing with the facts, and I simply tried to get you to acknowledge that.
However, I see you simple cut out the substantive portions of my last post. I guess that means you cannot address my points and aren't interested in facts.
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Well, at the current time man on man sex requires you to ignore the bio mechanics, and this is for the entire human population, rather then just one single case. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 14:55:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
That is fine. But at the current moment evolution still has sexual repeoduction through a man and women only. And man on man sex is only acomlished through the placing of a square peg in a round hole. It will work if it is forced but, obviously, is not the intent. |
Nature also didn't intend to give us long, healthy lives, either. Most of human longevity has been accomplished specifically by fighting against what nature intends.| And most times the results are disasterious. |
Citations, please. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 14:56:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Well, at the current time man on man sex requires you to ignore the bio mechanics... |
Actually, the men who engage in such sex seem to rather enjoy the biomechanics of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 16:26:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Well, at the current time man on man sex requires you to ignore the bio mechanics, and this is for the entire human population, rather then just one single case.
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And is the entire human population wishing to engage in homosexual relations? No? Then of what value is your objection, since in reality it is clear that homosexual relations will never mean an end to our species? None. It's simply another red herring.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 16:28:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
Well, at the current time man on man sex requires you to ignore the bio mechanics... |
Actually, the men who engage in such sex seem to rather enjoy the biomechanics of it.
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So does a dog humping a tree, enjoy the biomechanics of it all. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 16:36:57 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Ricky |
| If you really think the peg is square, I'd advise you to go consult your doctor |
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Obvious tounge and cheek.
| It has already been shown that not everything need to be as intended. Yet you still repeat the same argument. Why? Does it really still sound like a valid argument to you? Even after you said, "That is fine." to a counter example which dismantled that same exact argument. Why? |
I doubt evolution works by going against the obvious intent of itself. Man on women sex is the obvious intent of sexual reproduction. Man on man sex, obviously, is not. A house divided will never stand. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 16:38:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
Well, at the current time man on man sex requires you to ignore the bio mechanics, and this is for the entire human population, rather then just one single case.
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And is the entire human population wishing to engage in homosexual relations? No? Then of what value is your objection, since in reality it is clear that homosexual relations will never mean an end to our species? None. It's simply another red herring.
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A simple denial handwave of obvious biomechanics, yet again. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 16:54:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Most of human longevity has been accomplished specifically by fighting against what nature intends. |
Of which homosexuality is not one of them. Not to mention it's negative impact on procreation and the longevity of the species. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Craig returns, 1st votes against hate crime act
