|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2007 : 17:22:02 [Permalink]
|
| My comments were directed at Kil and Dave. As usual, it went over their heads. |
Okay. Really slow now as though you're talking to a child, what exactly did I miss? (Please try to avoid the use of too many syllables in the words you choose to explain the above because they might confuse me…)
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
 |
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 18:42:28 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
|
| Call whatever you want. You have a third outcome to offer? |
Oblivion. |
Right, as I said, it would be as if he/me never even existed.
| Pascal's Gambit is a logical fallacy. Consider, unless one really believed, then he'd merely be paying lip service, hedging his bets, if you will. If the deity in question can't pick up on that, then it is not omnipotent and therefore unworthy of worship. |
I really believe. And I am rather sure He can pick up on that.
| In the meantime, our nonbeliever has made it to services almost as often as the deacons, has tithed and donated to the collection plate, and done all of the various conniptions demanded by the sect. So either way, he loses out; if no God, he's wasted his time & resources; if there is an omnipotent God, he has, again, wasted his time & resources. |
Yes, that's right. As you well know the believing Christian is saved by grace, through faith, and not by any works, lest no man can boast.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 18:53:56 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by HalfMooner |
| Gee, Bill, I'm not sure how ever I'm going to be able to please you about all this idle time I have on my hands. |
I am not asking that you please me. I am just amazed that you can't find something a little more constructive to use your talents on rather then the pity stuff you have offered up of late.
| You want me to hang myself? |
No, of course not!
| That would rid me of all this wonderful free time that I'm enjoying, and which seems to so annoy your anal-retentive Protestant work ethic. But that ain't gonna happen. |
You've been given the gift of time, along with other obvious talents it's up to you to find your worthy calling. And whatever that was with the whole Jerry Fallwell thing ain't it.
Meanwhile, your repeated refrain is boring. A better approach might be to strike back with, well, humor, Bill. That is, if you're up to it.
I challenge you. |
You are challenging me to a duel of comedic material?
| My guess is that you are a deeply bitter person with an authoritarian personality. I think you see things in stark black and white, with few gray areas, and no colors at all. You bow to authority, |
I thought you just said that I was authoritarian? In the next breath I bow to authority? You are all over the board here.
| I suspect you are so concerned with an invisible god and an intangible devil, and that your mind just doesn't have room for trivia like colors, or humor. You're too busy with concerns for the mythical next world to enjoy the only one you'll ever see, this one we're living in. |
You should not fall for stereotypes. It makes you look bigoted.
| But I might be completely wrong about this. Instead, you may be a completely normal person, but one that for some reason has a reverence for undeserving con artists like Falwell. |
I never defended Falwell. Instead I said it was childish and irreverent the way you mocked the dead. That of course is my opinion.
| Of course, some people don't really seem to have any humor. Do you, Bill? I mean this seriously: What makes you laugh? Not all of my humor is political or religious, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that I should at least try to understand what might make you laugh. Do you have a favorite comedian? A favorite cartoon strip that makes you laugh? I hope you do, Bill, for your own sake. Or do you resist all humor, because it might demonstrate that you have too much time on your own hands, idle hands that could become the devil's playthings? |
I usually enjoy dry humor, satire.
Seinfeld was one of my all time favorite shows. I consider much of that borderline genius. Kramer turning laps in the East River, George and the NY Yankees, and it shrinks like a frightened turtle. Classic…
I finally got burnt out and then |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 19:17:22 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
You've been given the gift of time, along with other obvious talents it's up to you to find your worthy calling. And whatever that was with the whole Jerry Fallwell thing ain't it.
|
As has been mentioned humor is subjective. I personally found this piece of Moonscape News quite funny. I found the picture funny in the way it fit perfectly with this piece. However, the image of a fat man in a box independent of this story well ...
Shit here comes the queasinees, followed by retching, and then several minutes driving the porcelain bus.
Damn you 'mooner! |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 19:34:50 [Permalink]
|
Bill asked: | You are challenging me to a duel of comedic material? |
Yes. Not sure I'd win, but it'd be fun.
Bill wrote: | I thought you just said that I was authoritarian? In the next breath I bow to authority? You are all over the board here. |
There's no contradiction. If you'd read the Wiki article I linked to, you might understand. Authoritarians bow to, but only sometimes exercise, authority. (Most simply submit to it.) It's what they respect: Power, tradition, authority. Sometimes they fancy uniforms and marching, too. I do not, as some on the Left might, say that the authoritarian personality is purely an aspect of the Right. There have been plenty of authoritarian "Leftists" as well, and I have known a few. The personality type is found at all the political and religious extremes.
Bill wrote: | You should not fall for stereotypes. It makes you look bigoted. |
I'm glad we agree.
Bill wrote: | I never defended Falwell. Instead I said it was childish and irreverent the way you mocked the dead. That of course is my opinion |
I had the impression that's what you were doing. Childish, and irreverent? Certainly irreverent! If I can pull off "childish" at 62, I guess I'm happy enough.
I enjoy a good deal of the same humor you do, interestingly. I'm glad you are not the dried up old blue-nosed stick I suspected.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 19:38:32 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Bill scott
You've been given the gift of time, along with other obvious talents it's up to you to find your worthy calling. And whatever that was with the whole Jerry Fallwell thing ain't it.
|
As has been mentioned humor is subjective. I personally found this piece of Moonscape News quite funny. I found the picture funny in the way it fit perfectly with this piece. However, the image of a fat man in a box independent of this story well ...
Shit here comes the queasinees, followed by retching, and then several minutes driving the porcelain bus.
Damn you 'mooner!
|
I really am sorry. That's one of the things I will regret for the rest of my life. The image is now engraved upon many people's retinas.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 20:51:15 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
The interesting thing is that if I am right then we both will eventually know that I am. If you are right then neither of us will know this. If you are right, then at the point of death it will be as if you, or I, had never even existed. |
Actually, the interesting thing is that if you are right, it will be as if you or Mooner no longer exist, too.
After all, the existence of the Biblical God is essentially meaningless to those here on Earth, it only matters to the dead. Except it doesn't matter to the dead, either, since they'll be experiencing eternal torment or eternal bliss with no way to effect changes on anyone (unless you believe in ghosts, but then Jesus is allegedly the only one to ever come back, so ghosts are out).
If you wind up in Hell, then whether you believed in God and the afterlife is irrelevant to your continued existence and to those you left behind. Since the torture will be forever, nothing will matter. I'd imagine that everyone must figure this out after a few decades, and so the primary emotion in Hell isn't terror or regret, but ennui. Same goes for Heaven. Once you're there, so what? You can't beat perfection, so it's not like there's anything constructive one can do up there. An eternity of boredom.
No matter where you end up, and no matter how hard you try, in the afterlife it will be like you no longer exist. God can't be less God if you go to Hell, Bill. And he can't be more God if you go to Heaven. And once you have proof in hand of God's existence, then all that will matter is God, because He's the one providing eternity. Whether your family and friends share your fate will necessarily be irrelevant (and after all, the perfection of Heaven can't be tainted by regret). Your hopes, dreams and aspirations will all be similarly meaningless.
So the only thing that matters, whether one believes in God or not, to people living on Earth is life here on Earth. Those people with empathy and compassion should all be working towards making life on this planet easier for everyone. If you believe in God, you'll do it because less "evil" here will make it easier to save people. And if you don't believe you'll do it because less "evil" here will mean that there's less "evil" here. This life is it. There aren't any second chances for anyone. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 02:49:39 [Permalink]
|
Can't say it better'n that Dave. | Yes, that's right. As you well know the believing Christian is saved by grace, through faith, and not by any works, lest no man can boast. |
I am tempted to say, "Well, whatever gets ya through the day." but that's casting it aside with, really, a flip-off.
Having had little religious upbringing, it has long been a mystery to me as to why an afterlife is necessary. And there are so many versions of it, ranging from the soul taking a place amongst the stars to the acquisition of 72 virgins (ye gods!), to the believer returning to a corporal existence as a barnacle or something if he didn't do it just right the first time. Indeed, to just about all situations imaginable, if one could go back in time and examine the subject.
Death is inevitable, and while we understand that, I don't think that we understand it, if you catch my drift. We find it all but impossible to accept an existence that does not include the unique and irreplaceable Me. Therefore, most of us believe, one way or another, that we have after-lives. One neat thing about most afterlives is that we can consign those whom we don't like and are too strong to attack with either logic or a cudgel to the darkest part of the down-side of it and feel pretty good about the whole thing. That will certainly help you get through the day, believer or no.
'Mooner's little spoof on Falwell brings up an interesting question, and I'd like to ask it: Here was a man who would not hesitate to stab a fellow preacher (Bakker) in the back to prevent another preacher (Swaggert) from doing the same; a man so consumed with ambition that he would associate with a blatant blasphemer & false prophet (Moon) and accept his money; who has, in partnership with another scoundrel (Robertson), blamed the slaughter of some 3,000 innocents on people he hated for no better reason than they didn't agree with him, and would, I believe, impose, by force if he could, his views upon the entire nation. In short, a throughly evil person. The question is: if he claimed repentance for all of his misdeeds, would God buy it? Or would the deity put his wallet in his sock for the interview, and then send our Jerry out to sweat off a little lard?
I would hope for the latter 'cause, damn but that was one ugly picture!
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 03:38:36 [Permalink]
|
| Unfortunately, Filthy, as the Holy Chick Tracts (King James Version) make clear, the Calvinist-fundy position is that a last-minute repentance trumps a murdering, evil, foul life. A life of selfless morality and good deeds, however outstanding, will get you into Hell, so long as you don't have a precise "faith" in something that lacks any evidence. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 16:03:43 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
| The interesting thing is that if I am right then we both will eventually know that I am. If you are right then neither of us will know this. If you are right, then at the point of death it will be as if you, or I, had never even existed. |
Pascal's Gambit. It's been a while since we've seen it.
|
Call whatever you want. You have a third outcome to offer?
|
I'll give you a third, and a couple more to boot:
3. You both find yourselves deep beneath he underworld, in Hel, wishing you'd died in battle.
4. Not having achieved enlightment in this life, it's continued samsara for you. Better luck next time.
5. After a brief stay in Duat, getting you heart 's mass compared to that of a feather, it'll probably be be eaten by Ammit.
There are of course, an endless number of alternative options.
Are you big enough to admit that there's no evidence good enough to convince someone who hasn't already made up their mind, that your fairy tale of choice is more likely than any other on offer?
The fact remains, ones choice of religion is still, statistically, largely dependant on geography and social factors, not on evidence or common sense, or even a semi-informed choice. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 16:15:05 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JohnOAS
I'll give you a third, and a couple more to boot:
3. You both find yourselves deep beneath he underworld, in Hel, wishing you'd died in battle.
4. Not having achieved enlightment in this life, it's continued samsara for you. Better luck next time.
5. After a brief stay in Duat, getting you heart 's mass compared to that of a feather, it'll probably be be eaten by Ammit.
There are of course, an endless number of alternative options.
Are you big enough to admit that there's no evidence good enough to convince someone who hasn't already made up their mind, that your fairy tale of choice is more likely than any other on offer?
The fact remains, ones choice of religion is still, statistically, largely dependant on geography and social factors, not on evidence or common sense, or even a semi-informed choice.
|
Hey, man. Like pick a pantheon of your choice, but stick to it.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/10/2007 16:15:59 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 18:16:19 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
|
| You are challenging me to a duel of comedic material? |
Yes. Not sure I'd win, but it'd be fun. |
How about some knock-knock jokes?
| There's no contradiction. If you'd read the Wiki article I linked to, you might understand. Authoritarians bow to, but only sometimes exercise, authority. (Most simply submit to it.) It's what they respect: Power, tradition, authority. Sometimes they fancy uniforms and marching, too. I do not, as some on the Left might, say that the authoritarian personality is purely an aspect of the Right. There have been plenty of authoritarian "Leftists" as well, and I have known a few. The personality type is found at all the political and religious extremes. |
For sure not me, I have a hard time bowing to authority. It's in my base nature to reject authority as it is with the rest of us. It started with Adam.
| You should not fall for stereotypes. It makes you look bigoted. |
I'm glad we agree. |
Good.
| I enjoy a good deal of the same humor you do, interestingly. |
I knew there was something we could agree on if we just looked hard enough.
| I'm glad you are not the dried up old blue-nosed stick I suspected. |
Thanks, HM
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 18:20:35 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Actually, the interesting thing is that if you are right, it will be as if you or Mooner no longer exist, too. |
Ok, go on.
| After all, the existence of the Biblical God is essentially meaningless to those here on Earth, |
Unless he is the creator, as well as the sustainer, of all life, then he is very meaningful.
| it only matters to the dead. Except it doesn't matter to the dead, either, since they'll be experiencing eternal torment or eternal bliss with no way to effect changes on anyone (unless you believe in ghosts, but then Jesus is allegedly the only one to ever come back, so ghosts are out). |
I never said that anyone could effect changes here on earth after their death. I just said that it was interesting.
| If you wind up in Hell, then whether you believed in God and the afterlife is irrelevant to your continued existence and to those you left behind. |
I agree. Now you see why you need to accept your Savior now, for tomorrow may be too late.
| Since the torture will be forever, nothing will matter. |
Not torture, but torment.
| I'd imagine that everyone must figure this out after a few decades, and so the primary emotion in Hell isn't terror or regret, but ennui. Same goes for Heaven. Once you're there, so what? You can't beat perfection, so it's not like there's anything constructive one can do up there. An eternity of boredom. |
What makes you think that time will exist in eternity?
| No matter where you end up, and no matter how hard you try, in the afterlife it will be like you no longer exist. |
Oh, you will exist all right.
| God can't be less God if you go to Hell, Bill. And he can't be more God if you go to Heaven. And once you have proof in hand of God's existence, then all that will matter is God, because He's the one providing eternity. |
It will mean an awful lot to me now don't forget. And that is why you witness to your family and friends in this life.
| Whether your family and friends share your fate will necessarily be irrelevant |
Not if they are saved, then they too will be joining in the great wedding feast.
| Your hopes, dreams and aspirations will all be similarly meaningless. |
If my family joins me in eternity because I witnesed to them on this side of death?
| (and after all, the perfection of Heaven can't be tainted by regret). |
What about the great white throne judgment?
[Rst of post lost in a database crash - Dave W.] |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
| Edited by - Bill scott on 10/10/2007 19:43:43 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 19:13:23 [Permalink]
|
Bill suggested:| How about some knock-knock jokes? |
Okay:
Knock, knock.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/10/2007 19:13:46 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 07:07:44 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
|
I am tempted to say, "Well, whatever gets ya through the day." but that's casting it aside with, really, a flip-off.
Having had little religious upbringing, it has long been a mystery to me as to why an afterlife is necessary. |
Who said that it was necessary?
| And there are so many versions of it, ranging from the soul taking a place amongst the stars to the acquisition of 72 virgins (ye gods!), to the believer returning to a corporal existence as a barnacle or something if he didn't do it just right the first time. Indeed, to just about all situations imaginable, if one could go back in time and examine the subject. |
In my opinion you will have one worldview that is correct, while there will be many that are not. Truth is exclusive.
But heck, many times people within their own religion cannot agree with each other. And as if Atheist and Skeptics are all on the same page with each other with no disagreements over this or that. Shoot, this forum alone can dispel that myth.
| Death is inevitable, and while we understand that, I don't think that we understand it, if you catch my drift. We find it all but impossible to accept an existence that does not include the unique and irreplaceable Me. Therefore, most of us believe, one way or another, that we have after-lives. One neat thing about most afterlives is that we can consign those whom we don't like and are too strong to attack with either logic or a cudgel to the darkest part of the down-side of it and feel pretty good about the whole thing. That will certainly help you get through the day, believer or no. |
Let me make sure I follow you, so your saying that if a skeptic ridicules and mocks a Christian then the Christian can still find comfort in his belief that the skeptic will be burning in hell for all of eternity after this life is finished?
| 'Mooner's little spoof on Falwell brings up an interesting question, and I'd like to ask it: Here was a man who would not hesitate to stab a fellow preacher (Bakker) in the back to prevent another preacher (Swaggert) from doing the same; a man so consumed with ambition that he would associate with a blatant blasphemer & false prophet (Moon) and accept his money; who has, in partnership with another scoundrel (Robertson), blamed the slaughter of some 3,000 innocents on people he hated for no better reason than they didn't agree with him, and would, I believe, impose, by force if he could, his views upon the entire nation. In short, a throughly evil person. The question is: if he claimed repentance for all of his misdeeds, would God buy it? Or would the deity put his wallet in his sock for the interview, and then send our Jerry out to sweat off a little lard? |
Only the deity knows. It is dangerous grounds to try and determine who is saved and who is not as you are not the deity and therefore have limited knowledge. I mean how many times are we told in the NT there will be many wolves in sheep's clothing? Is JF a wolf in sheeps clothing? One thing is sure, whatever he recives from the deity on the other side we can rest assured that it will be just, as that is the very nature of said deity.
| I would hope for the latter 'cause, damn but that was one ugly picture! |
I would agree.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Jerry Falwell's induction interview
