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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2007 : 09:24:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| After all, the existence of the Biblical God is essentially meaningless to those here on Earth, |
Unless he is the creator, as well as the sustainer, of all life, then he is very meaningful. |
How would you live your Earthly life differently if you had proof that some other god was the only one?| If you wind up in Hell, then whether you believed in God and the afterlife is irrelevant to your continued existence and to those you left behind. |
I agree. Now you see why you need to accept your Savior now, for tomorrow may be too late. |
No, it's irrelevant. You just got done telling filthy that it's important to not second-guess God, so whether I'll be "saved" or not isn't anything that I can determine or change. God already knows, and there isn't a thing I can do to change His mind.| What makes you think that time will exist in eternity? |
Time is irrelevant in eternity. It will be an existence of boredom.| No matter where you end up, and no matter how hard you try, in the afterlife it will be like you no longer exist. |
Oh, you will exist all right. |
But you existence will be irrelevant, so it will be like you don't exist.| God can't be less God if you go to Hell, Bill. And he can't be more God if you go to Heaven. And once you have proof in hand of God's existence, then all that will matter is God, because He's the one providing eternity. |
It will mean an awful lot to me now don't forget. |
No, it won't. It can't mean anything because there could be no other way it could be. Without counterfactuals, everything is stripped of meaning.| Whether your family and friends share your fate will necessarily be irrelevant |
Not if they are saved, then they too will be joining in the great wedding feast.| Your hopes, dreams and aspirations will all be similarly meaningless. |
If my family joins me in eternity because I witnesed to them on this side of death? |
But you won't be any happier with your family than without them. Heaven is perfection. However many of your family and friends make it there will be the perfect number, regardless of what you do. You will, of course, feel that any of your family that goes to Hell does so due to the perfect justice of God, and you'll be incapable of feeling any sort of disappointment. Whether all of your family joins you in Heaven or none of them do, you will necessarily feel exactly the same way about it - and thus it is meaningless.| (and after all, the perfectio... |
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[Rest of post lost in a database crash - Dave W.] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 11:43:28 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| After all, the existence of the Biblical God is essentially meaningless to those here on Earth, |
Unless he is the creator, as well as the sustainer, of all life, then he is very meaningful. |
How would you live your Earthly life differently if you had proof that some other god was the only one? |
I might sleep in a little more on Sundays, if you had proof that some other god was the only one that is.
| If you wind up in Hell, then whether you believed in God and the afterlife is irrelevant to your continued existence and to those you left behind. |
I agree. Now you see why you need to accept your Savior now, for tomorrow may be too late. |
No, it's irrelevant. You just got done telling filthy that it's important to not second-guess God, |
I told filthy that since I was not God that is was not my place to say who was saved and who was not, on a case by case basis that is.
| so whether I'll be "saved" or not isn't anything that I can determine or change. God already knows, and there isn't a thing I can do to change His mind. |
Just because God knew in eternity past that you and I would be having this conversation at this time does not mean that I did not participate in this conversation of my own freewill. Knowing the future does not, by default, mean that frewill is negated. Now, I would agree that our conversation here was predestined in the sense that:
1. We are having this conversation, that is a fact.
2. God, being God, then would have know that we were going to have this conversation before you or I ever existed. He would have too, because we are having it, and He is God.
3. So, if God knew that we would have this conversation before either of us was even born then our conversation today was predestined. If we did not have our conversation today, even though God knew we would before we ever existed, then he would not be God. And it is in that sense that our conversation today was predestined. God knew we were going to have it before, well, before we even existed. So based on that, how could we not have had it? That is what is meant by predestination.
Just because God knows who would be saved before the universe even existed, making their salvation predestined, does not negate one bit that the fact they this choice for salvation was of the saved persons own freewill. Just because God knows what your freewill choice will be, before you even make it, does not change the fact that your choice was still of your own freewill. And that my friend is how freewill and predestination coexist in harmony in God's wonderful creation.
| What makes you think that time will exist in eternity? |
Time is irrelevant in eternity. |
But you said in a few decades the person would realize this and then beco...
[Rest of post lost in a database crash - Dave W.] |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 11:57:56 [Permalink]
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| If God created us knowing what we would do, then he created us to do just what we did. We had no choice. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:12:36 [Permalink]
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You can have free will with an omniscient being if you transmogrify the definition of free will to mean "ability to choose even though the choice is predetermined", i.e. freewill = predetermined.
This seems to be some type of compatibilism view of determination without the burden of explaining how it is possible. Eventually leading to "because god said so".
So when you die and you are before God, and he says "You didn't make the right choice in life", the easy response is "Well, I couldn't help it. I had no choice." God will say, "Hmmm, didn't think of that. Okay, you get a free pass." So it is written, so it shall be.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 10/12/2007 12:22:09 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:26:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
If God created us knowing what we would do, then he created us to do just what we did. We had no choice.
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| If God created us knowing what we would do, |
Simply knowing what you would do does not trump freewill.
| then he created us to do just what we did. |
Which you did by your own freewill
You had a choice. Just because God knows your choice before hand does not negate that choice. I am not sure why this is difficult for you to grasp. Simply knowing the future does not negate freewill.
1. Are we having this conversation right now? Say, yes.
2. Are we both having this conversation by our own freewill? Say, yes.
3. God, being God, would have known before the foundation of the universe that we would be having this conversation, would he not? Say, yes.
4. Therefore, our conversation is predestined in the fact that God already knows we are going to have it and so what could then keep us from having the conversation? If we didn't have the conversation then God would have been wrong and therefore not God.
Now can you yet see how predestine and freewill can perfectly coexist? Say, yes. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 10/12/2007 12:38:05 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:33:08 [Permalink]
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Simply knowing what you would do does not trump freewill.
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It isn't "simply knowing." It is creating us knowing beforehand what we would do. It is creating us with the express purpose of doing what he knew that we would do. It was his choice to have us do what we would eventually do. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2007 12:33:41 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:45:19 [Permalink]
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| Free will seems to be a myth as well, although I think that the jury is out on that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2007 12:45:44 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:50:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I might sleep in a little more on Sundays, if you had proof that some other god was the only one that is. |
The question was about meaning, and you've trivialized it.| I told filthy that since I was not God that is was not my place to say who was saved and who was not, on a case by case basis that is. |
Right, so tell me again why I should accept one saviour over another or none at all.| so whether I'll be "saved" or not isn't anything that I can determine or change. God already knows, and there isn't a thing I can do to change His mind. |
Just because God knew in eternity past that you and I would be having this conversation at this time does not mean that I did not participate in this conversation of my own freewill... |
My statements had nothing to do with free will, and everything to do with our inability to actually know God's will. Also, free will has nothing to do with whether this conversation was predestined.| But you said in a few decades the person would realize this and then become bored. That's why I asked the question. What is a few decades in eternity? |
An eyeblink. That was my point.| Simply because your existence, and place of existence is for eternity? |
No, simply because if Heaven is perfect, then nothing of significance can ever change there.| How would you know that it would be boredom? The only thing you have to make this comparison too is what you have experienced here on Earth. Not to mention you have never experienced existence without time. So your conclusion that your existence, wherever it may be, will be boring is not based on anything tangible and is just your personal opinion based on your own Earthly experiences. |
Your conclusion is based upon wild speculation, while at least mine has what we can know as a foundation.| Your existence is very relevant and very real and was a conclusion of a decision that you made with your own freewill. |
No, my mere existence would continue no matter what my decision. The fact is, though, that where I exist and that I exist would both be meaningless.| God knowing the decision you would make before you made it does not negate freewill. |
Why does this have anything to do with free will?| No, it won't. It can't mean anything because there could be no other way it could be. Without counterfactuals, everything is stripped of meaning. |
Again, your trying to lump predestination and freewill into something that they are not. |
No, I wasn't. I was talking about the necessity of the lack of being able to form a counterfactual once you're in Heaven. Once perfection has been attained, there would be no reason for you to ever imagine anything else. To do so would imply that Heaven is less than perfect. Besides, once you're in Heaven or in Hell, you are stripped of your free will. You're no longer capable of disbelieving in God once you're dead.| If I decide to kill someone today that will be of my own freewill if I do it. If I did kill someone today God would have known I was going to do this before I even existed. Therefore, in that scenario, the killing could called predestined. If I did not kill the person then God would have been wrong and therefore not God. Your trying to imply that because of predestination that our choices down here do not matter. I am telling you the exact opposite. |
I was talking about choices "up there," not "down here."| What makes you think I will have no regrets after I die?. |
If Heaven is perfect, no regrets will be allowed. Hell will be nothing but regrets, making them meaningless.| The Bible discusses a judgment for believers and a judgment for non-believers. Does this occur before or during heaven, I don't know. Again, your trying to compare heaven, hell, and eternity with your limited Earthy experience that you have had while here. The Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those that love him. We won't/can't comprehend the afterlife until we are there. Comparing it to experiences we have had here on Earth is an exercise in futility. |
Then why do you strive for it? What if it's horrible?| What about the great white throne judgment? |
Why would a throne feel regret? |
I don't know, why? |
You asked the question about "the great white throne judgment" feeling regret, so you tell me.| Eternity is at stake for all. |
You just got through telling me that we can't comprehend that, so why is anything "at stake?" How can you bet your (after)life on something that you admit you can't possibly understand? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:52:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Simply knowing what you would do does not trump freewill.
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It isn't "simply knowing." It is creating us knowing beforehand what we would do. It is creating us with the express purpose of doing what he knew that we would do. It was his choice to have us do what we would eventually do.
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| It isn't "simply knowing." It is creating us knowing beforehand what we would do. |
How does creating us, even though he already knows what we will do, a violation of freewill. He knew what we would decided by our own freewill and he decided to create us anyway so that we can do what we decided we are going to do.
| It is creating us with the express purpose of doing what he knew that we would do. |
Who said that it was his express purpose to create us to do what he knew we would do. More like he knew what we would do and decided to create us anyway.
| It was his choice to have us do what we would eventually do. |
No, it was his choice to create us, all ready knowing what we were going to do by our own freewill. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 12:58:32 [Permalink]
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Bill, a "choice" that inevitably results in a single, previously determined outcome is not really a choice at all. If god knows what you will do, then you cannot do otherwise. Before you even existed, all that you would ever do was determined ahead of time by god. It is impossible to reconcile that notion with free will unless, as pleco says, you simply redefine free will to mean something completely different.
If your position is that god knows all in advance, then you do not have free will. You might feel as if you are freely making choices, but it would be an illusion.
So back to your example:
1. Are we having this conversation right now?
Yes.
2. Are we both having this conversation by our own freewill?
Only if it was not predetermined. If it was predetermined, then in no sense can it be called free.
3. God, being God, would have known before the foundation of the universe that we would be having this conversation, would he not?
Possibly. Some, such as yourself, would say yes, but in doing so destroy any notion of free will. Others, in an attempt to save the concept of free will, argue that god cannot foresee what a free agent will choose. In other words, god's omniscience doesn't extend to predicting the future--he only knows all that has occurred, not all that will occur. I suspect you would dislike any such attempts at limited god, however.
4. Therefore, our conversation is predestined in the fact that God already knows we are going to have it and so what could then keep us from having the conversation? If we didn't have the conversation then God would have been wrong and therefore not God.
So if you admit that the conversation is predestined, how can you argue that it was freely chosen? As you say, we could not choose otherwise or else god would not be god. You are admitting we don't have a free choice in the matter.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 16:52:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Gorgo
Simply knowing what you would do does not trump freewill.
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It isn't "simply knowing." It is creating us knowing beforehand what we would do. It is creating us with the express purpose of doing what he knew that we would do. It was his choice to have us do what we would eventually do.
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| It isn't "simply knowing." It is creating us knowing beforehand what we would do. |
How does creating us, even though he already knows what we will do, a violation of freewill. He knew what we would decided by our own freewill and he decided to create us anyway so that we can do what we decided we are going to do.
| It is creating us with the express purpose of doing what he knew that we would do. |
Who said that it was his express purpose to create us to do what he knew we would do. More like he knew what we would do and decided to create us anyway.
| It was his choice to have us do what we would eventually do. |
No, it was his choice to create us, all ready knowing what we were going to do by our own freewill.
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In other words, God is the programmer and we are just parts of the program written by God. I contend that we are limited to a set of programmed behaviors defined/known by God. And that your argument must be that freewill means being unaware of the program. Based upon this the best we can have is the illusion of freewill. That is if what you say about God's knowledge is true. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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chu082011
Spammer
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 02:39:01 [Permalink]
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Thank very much for your comment. It help me to think about for my ideals.
Tks again and pls keep posting.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 14:27:55 [Permalink]
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Oh god, that picture! You know, I can give you a picture that's a hundred times more horrifying than that! Here's a hint: Japanese Manga called "Gyo"....second volume. Do not look for this at work or at anyplace where someone who has a soul to spare can see it!
My thanks to the_ignored for the general inspiration. |
By the way, how did I get involved in this?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 22:18:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Oh god, that picture! You know, I can give you a picture that's a hundred times more horrifying than that! Here's a hint: Japanese Manga called "Gyo"....second volume. Do not look for this at work or at anyplace where someone who has a soul to spare can see it!
My thanks to the_ignored for the general inspiration. |
By the way, how did I get involved in this?
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Been a long time, but I generally try to give credit or blame where it's due. Must have been some comment you posted that got my brain twitching.
Here's hoping I can resist the urge to look up Gyo. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 22:38:26 [Permalink]
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| The necromancy is strong with this one |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Jerry Falwell's induction interview
