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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2007 : 07:35:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
We don't have a draft, Bill. The poor, at least in law if not in economic reality, do have the right to opt out of fighting. What I'm talking about is moral responsibility for these people to do as they believe others should do. If they believe a war us evil, they should not fight in it. If they believe it's a good war, they should be in the middle it.
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I don't see anywhere in this link where Jenna comes out and says that she supports the fight in Iraq. When asked:
If the war in Iraq is so noble, why aren't you and your sister serving our country there?
She answers with this:
I understand that point, but there are many ways to serve our country, and I think my skills are better suited for teaching and representing the U.S. in Latin America through UNICEF. I respect the men and women of our country who are over there fighting. It is an unbelievably selfless thing to do. But if people really thought about it, they would know it's not even a practical question.
All that she says is that she respects the armed forces personal. Not that she had a say so in telling her daddy to send them there. Could you imagine the security that would be required for Jenna Bush in Iraq, not to mention all the distraction it would cause.
In fact when asked if she would like to be involved in politics, which could mean making a decision on going to war, she replied:
Absolutely not.
BTW, she is a very cute looking young lady. She could do much better then that fellow she is engaged too.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 10/12/2007 07:35:55 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 08:48:21 [Permalink]
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Why would you be surprised she has a job? She is a collage graduate.
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What difference does that make?
| Yeah, I mean how many 20 year olds party while off at college? And isn't boot camp known for straightening out a lot of immature youth and putting them on the right path? So it's really nothing more then your opinion, based of what you see in the media, on how either would do in boot. |
I have been through boot, have you? Do you know what it takes? Do you know how many wash out with a General or UD?
| But yet you just did what makes you uncomfortable not more then three sentences up????? |
We all do things that we are not comfortable with, now and then. However, this is a first for me.
| But's it's OK for you to do it to the Bush twins? |
Actually, no.
| Just like her daddy, right? |
How do you know that B. clinton wouldn't make a good military officer? His leadership qualities are certainly sufficent, as he has shown, be he right or wrong. So by your own account, GWB owes you a trip to the hospital.
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I would love for the smarmy, little pissant to try it! But he'd probably hire it done.
| Wasn't Clinton of fighting age during nam? |
Yup.
| But you will lay personal attacks on them, such as their party habits in college? I am sure Chelsy never popped open a cold beer at some college party. (sigh) |
(sigh) my ass! That's a strawman unworthy even of you. It's certainly possible that she did, but I remind: she never got busted for underage pub-crawling.
I think you're just trying to pick a fight.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 10:47:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't want anyone to go to any of these criminal wars. I dont' care if it's hypocrites or saints.
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That's really my bottom line, too, Gorgo. We certainly disagree on particular wars, but Iraq's not one of them.
Still, this kind of murderous hypocrisy screams out to be addressed on its own merits, as it has more universal implications. Observed as a metric device, it is important. It may apply not only to making moral observations about this war, but also about future conflicts. We could do much worse as a society than to hone our skills at detecting and rejecting such hypocrisy, and the dangerous hypocrites who embrace it.
It's perhaps the greatest weakness in the position of those who support this war: A bloodyminded determination that others should die (and especially, as is sometimes the case, if they feel they themselves may benefit through profiteering), so long as they are spared risk or inconvenience. In essence, it's a position that's both cowardly and immoral. It rejects anything resembling the Golden Rule, in favor of the Rule of Gold.
This hypocrisy, immorality and cowardice, I feel, is central to understanding the origins, the progression, and (one hopes) the ending of this war.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 11:04:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
The interview I saw of her on 20/20 she would not comment on her own personal thouights the war.
So politician's kids should go be involved in arm conflicts that their parents support, unless they disagree, then they are exempt?
That's a bizarre interesting policy.
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You know I never said that, Bill. There should be no exemptions from taking a stand, and living by it. I have spoken only to the support or non-support of the offspring themselves toward the war.
That Jenna wants to evade taking a public position on the first or second most important issue of our day is itself revealing for another kind of cowardice. But, unless she's an even greater airhead than I thought, she has a position, secret or not. She should, on a issue that involves tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths, either be working for, or against, the war.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 13:06:20 [Permalink]
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Well, she's born off the very shallow end of the gene pool. Don't expect her to think deep thoughts...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2007 : 13:36:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Yes, that would be unfair, if the twins did not support their daddy's war. |
So then do we send the kids of these politicians as well? They supported her daddy's war...
http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv
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Interesting compilation video you have there...
Among others John Edwards said "Seeing day after day, week after week, briefings in Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and his plans on using those weapons..."
I would like to ask you Bill...
Who prepared those briefings, and on who's orders? The International Weapons Inspectors never found anything remotely close to weapons of mass destriction before the invasion. Neither did American troops once they arrived.
Iraq was a paper tiger back in 2000, fighting with rhetorics as best they could to preserve their own national pride.
Bush figuratively ordered Saddam to drop his pants, bend over and spread his legs. Do you blame Saddam for saying enough is enough?
At the same time, back in America, the NeoCon establishment successfully did what they could to convince Democrats that it was in their best interest to go along.
You're damn right the children of the war-mongers, republicans and democrats alike, should be shipped to Iraq. If their parents' idiocy is in any way hereditary, dying for their country would be a good thing to do. Not just for America, but for the entire world.
And it would make politicians think twice before sending them out to a war America has no business fighting.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 12:11:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
No, not sour grapes. People should act upon their convictions, especially people who expect others to do so.
It's important that elites demonstrate courage and noblesse oblige. If they don't, they set themselves up for a fall. Jenna's grandfather knew as much, and fought bravely in WWII. But not her dad, and not her. Cowardice combined with wealth and arrogance is not something Americans will accept forever. She's just another Bush "yellow elephant."
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That makes about as much sense as saying if you support the arts that you personally should be painting murals, or if you want the government to keep our highways in good repair that you should personally hire on with a road crew, of if you want our schoolchildren to have nutritious meals that you should personally become a school cook.
That's nonsense, of course. You just want to stack the rules against people you disagree with. We live in a representative democracy, if you don't want the US to go to war, then vote for the guy least likely to get us there.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You're damn right the children of the war-mongers, republicans and democrats alike, should be shipped to Iraq. If their parents' idiocy is in any way hereditary, dying for their country would be a good thing to do. Not just for America, but for the entire world.
And it would make politicians think twice before sending them out to a war America has no business fighting. |
This is nothing short of blood-lust. In my opinion it's even more despicable than the thinking of those that got us into Iraq. At least they pursued a policy they believed in, you just want to see your political opponents suffer. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 12:57:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by HalfMooner
No, not sour grapes. People should act upon their convictions, especially people who expect others to do so.
It's important that elites demonstrate courage and noblesse oblige. If they don't, they set themselves up for a fall. Jenna's grandfather knew as much, and fought bravely in WWII. But not her dad, and not her. Cowardice combined with wealth and arrogance is not something Americans will accept forever. She's just another Bush "yellow elephant." |
That makes about as much sense as saying if you support the arts that you personally should be painting murals, or if you want the government to keep our highways in good repair that you should personally hire on with a road crew, of if you want our schoolchildren to have nutritious meals that you should personally become a school cook.
That's nonsense, of course. You just want to stack the rules against people you disagree with. We live in a representative democracy, if you don't want the US to go to war, then vote for the guy least likely to get us there. |
Let me say this again, but more slowly: Elites in a democracy who support a war, should be willing to risk their own lives in it. Doing otherwise is elitist hypocrisy and cowardice, deserving of contempt.
There is no way I can "prove" that statement, nor for you to disprove it. It's fundamentally a matter of ethics and political belief, yet it's very basic to my own beliefs. I'll just let it rest there.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 15:05:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
That's nonsense, of course. You just want to stack the rules against people you disagree with. |
Good grief. It's about fairness in leadership. The perception is that the children of the people who voted to send thousands of sons and daughters to Iraq and death are underrepresented in the Armed Forces. The perception is that those leaders, rather than following the ethic of most good leaders ("I wouldn't ask you to do anything I wouldn't do myself"), have instead used their positions of wealth and power to protect their children. This is seen as unfair, and rather than stacking the rules against these people, all that the citizenry is looking for is a simple level playing field where our representatives risk as much as we do.
Whether the perception is correct or incorrect is something you can argue. Twisting the desire for similar treatment for everyone into stacking the rules is not. What would be interesting would be a comparison of the uniform status of the children of congresspeople during times of war, comparing WWII, Korea, Vietnam, GWI and now GWII. Given the perception, it seems natural that the hypothesis would be that the rate of service of children of congresspeople has declined over time.
You also said:| That makes about as much sense as saying if you support the arts that you personally should be painting murals, or if you want the government to keep our highways in good repair that you should personally hire on with a road crew, of if you want our schoolchildren to have nutritious meals that you should personally become a school cook. |
Candidates (at least) do these sorts of things all the time. The analogy fails because none of these carry a significant risk of death from orders based upon lies and/or ignorance.| We live in a representative democracy, if you don't want the US to go to war, then vote for the guy least likely to get us there. |
I did. Those that didn't lose seem to have been rendered ineffective by the majority. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 16:38:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
That makes about as much sense as saying if you support the arts that you personally should be painting murals, or if you want the government to keep our highways in good repair that you should personally hire on with a road crew, of if you want our schoolchildren to have nutritious meals that you should personally become a school cook. |
As soon as I'm required to risk my or my loved ones' lives for any of those things, your analogy may have some merit. But war is not just another civic project. It is supposed to be a course of last resort, undertaken only after grave and serious deliberation. And yes, I damn well expect anyone who decides to lead my country into war to have the integrity to risk the lives of their loved ones and peers the same as they are asking the rest of us to.
Lives are at stake here, and you compare the war in Iraq to highway repair? Seriously, how out of touch can you be, Mycroft?
| This is nothing short of blood-lust. In my opinion it's even more despicable than the thinking of those that got us into Iraq. At least they pursued a policy they believed in, you just want to see your political opponents suffer. |
More despicable than asking others to sacrifice their children when you are unwilling to risk your own? And how can you believe a person who claims to "believe" in a cause if they're unwilling to assume any personal risk? It's not blood lust to expect our leaders to share the burden they are already asking everyone else to assume. That you could even try to spin such a reasonable expectation into a negative is insane.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/14/2007 16:39:51 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 19:00:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You're damn right the children of the war-mongers, republicans and democrats alike, should be shipped to Iraq. If their parents' idiocy is in any way hereditary, dying for their country would be a good thing to do. Not just for America, but for the entire world.
And it would make politicians think twice before sending them out to a war America has no business fighting. |
This is nothing short of blood-lust. In my opinion it's even more despicable than the thinking of those that got us into Iraq. At least they pursued a policy they believed in, you just want to see your political opponents suffer.
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A pinch of my not so humble opinion.
A pinch of "you reap what you sow".
A pinch of satire.
Mix with an underhand reference to Darwin Awards.
Too bad you didn't get it.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 11:19:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The perception is that those leaders, rather than following the ethic of most good leaders ("I wouldn't ask you to do anything I wouldn't do myself"), have instead used their positions of wealth and power to protect their children. |
That argument might have some merit for Vietnam era politicians, but the military we have now is a voluntary army. Now anyone who doesn't want to serve simply chooses not to.
| Originally posted by H. HumbertLives are at stake here, and you compare the war in Iraq to highway repair? |
Yes, and why not?
We want politicians to make the right choices, and sometimes war is the right choice.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 13:56:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
| Originally posted by H. HumbertLives are at stake here, and you compare the war in Iraq to highway repair? |
Yes, and why not? |
Because it demonstrates an emotional disconnect that borders on psychotic.
| We want politicians to make the right choices, and sometimes war is the right choice. |
Then those politicians should have the conviction of their choice. If it's the "right choice" only if they personally risk nothing, as it is with these chicken hawk conservatives, then it should call their integrity, morality, and judgment into question.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/15/2007 13:58:02 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 13:14:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Because it demonstrates an emotional disconnect that borders on psychotic. |
Policy decisions are policy decisions, and there is a human cost in virtually any decision governments make.
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Then those politicians should have the conviction of their choice. If it's the "right choice" only if they personally risk nothing, as it is with these chicken hawk conservatives, then it should call their integrity, morality, and judgment into question. |
I think a fundamental element of liberty is that a person is only responsible for the decisions they make and not the decisions their mom or dad makes. "Sins of the father" and all that is very biblical, and seems like something that should be coming from a fundie Christian.
If you honestly think former wartime/combat military service should be a requirement to run for public office, then that's a constitutional issue. Maybe you're right, but I really don't think that would create a political shift that's necessarily in the direction you want to go.
And finally, I think this whole topic represents a symptom of the polarization of American politics. It's okay to disagree with someone's policy, but demonizing them is beyond the pale, and going after their family is off the scale.
It's wrong when the conservatives do it. It's equally wrong when the liberals do it.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 18:24:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
[quote][1]
I think a fundamental element of liberty is that a person is only responsible for the decisions they make and not the decisions their mom or dad makes. "Sins of the father" and all that is very biblical, and seems like something that should be coming from a fundie Christian.
If you honestly think former wartime/combat military service should be a requirement to run for public office, then that's a constitutional issue. Maybe you're right, but I really don't think that would create a political shift that's necessarily in the direction you want to go.
And finally, I think this whole topic represents a symptom of the polarization of American politics. It's okay to disagree with someone's policy, but demonizing them is beyond the pale, and going after their family is off the scale.
It's wrong when the conservatives do it. It's equally wrong when the liberals do it. |
I don't think anyone's doing that. I know I said clearly all along that I judge people on their own statements and actions, not on their parents'. (Otherwise, I would have to praise George W. for the WWII heroism of George H.W.)
On the other hand, when elites use their family power and wealth to stay out of the same dangers that they will upon others, this is indefensible. If Jenna Bush opposes the war in Iraq, I would have nothing bad to say about her non-service there. But instead of taking a position that would divorce herself from supporting her daddy's war, she simply dismisses in the question of her service as "not . . . practical".
Mycroft, while there have always been members of the elite classes who avoided personal risk while supporting a war, it seems to me that these days this has become far more widespread and acceptable among the elites themselves. I find that disgusting.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/16/2007 18:26:52 |
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Jenna Bush answers your questions
