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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 17:45:50 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry, Dave. Could you please repeat that? I'm deafened by the roar of the crickets.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2007 : 18:50:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
Originally posted by pleco
Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery? |
Yes |
Poor Rob has been reduced to one word answers because the Bible clearly shows that slavery is condoned. When he trys to present any evidence you simply show him in the bible where slavery is acceptable. |
No one responded to my previous post that explains my position.
Edited to add: Sorry , I missed Dave's response. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 10/18/2007 19:01:46 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 19:18:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by furshur
Originally posted by pleco
Robb do you still think the Bible doesn't condone slavery? |
Yes |
Poor Rob has been reduced to one word answers because the Bible clearly shows that slavery is condoned. When he trys to present any evidence you simply show him in the bible where slavery is acceptable. |
No one responded to my previous post that explains my position.
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Well, Robb, it's not an entirely compelling position. I mean, it's great to say that Galatians 3:28 tells us that everyone is "equal" but obviously there really are men and woman, and were, at the time, slaves and free men. So Paul's intent in that passage isn't to say that there's no such thing as slavery, or that there shouldn't be slavery. Indeed, he seems fine with it.
And look, it's perfectly fine to say that you're interpreting Scripture to mean that slavery is bad. But it's really hard to argue that the biblical authors themselves-- be they Paul or some anonymous OT author-- actually thought slavery was bad or wrong. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 19:27:12 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W.Please, read all of Exodus 21. It is mostly rules on how to treat your Hebrew slaves and your cattle. 21:16 talks about stealing someone else's slave. |
Yes but this is not condoning slavery, it is regulating it just as the Bible regulates divorce.
| 21:20 says if you beat your servants and they die immediately, you get punished. But 21:21 says if you beat your servants and they live for a day or two before dying, you're fine because your servants are your money. |
Beating was a punishment for free men as well during this time, God is saying you cannot treat your slave differently than free men. It is keeping men from killing slaves for punishment.
| 21:32 says that ox-induced injuries to slaves are worth 30 shekels of silver (plus the death of the ox). 21:2, 5 and 6 say that if you buy a servant, he'll serve for six years and go free on the seventh, unless he wants to stay in which case you get to pierce his ear and keep him forever. |
OK, where does God say to enslave people?
| Yes, everyone's the same in God's judgement |
Can you further explain what you mean by this?
| but the Old Testament laws (from which not "a jot or tittle" has been done away with according to Jesus) clearly condoned slavery. That God won't favor masters or slaves when they come before Him doesn't mean that God didn't plan for there to be masters and slaves. [i]God created slavery, after all. |
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Mt 5:17
For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
The law is still in effect but Jesus is clear that he fulfilled the law.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fulfill
1archaic : to make full : fill <her subtle, warm, and golden breath…fulfills him with beatitude — Alfred Tennyson>
2 a: to put into effect : execute b: to meet the requirements of (a business order) c: to bring to an end d: to measure up to : satisfy
3 a: to convert into reality b: to develop the full potentialities of |
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:03:08 [Permalink]
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Robb:
OK, where does God say to enslave people? |
Leviticus Chapter 25
44 And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them may ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they may be your possession.
46 And ye may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession: of them may ye take your bondmen for ever; but over your brethren the children of Israel ye shall not rule, one over another, with rigour. |
Edited to add:
Also in Leviticus Chapter 11
7 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you. |
What I find odd about your view on God and slavery Robb is that God was very specific about the things he did not want people to do. Like eating pork. And yet, according to you Robb, he didn't condone slavery. But if he didn't condone it, why didn't he simply outlaw it as easily as he outlawed eating pork?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:10:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." |
My bolding.| The law is still in effect but Jesus is clear that he fulfilled the law. |
It is my understanding that the Law will only be fulfilled after Armageddon has come and gone and this planet is literally destroyed.
If it were otherwise, and the Law is already fulfilled, then all of the 300-plus Commandments (including Jesus' own) are effectively null and void, and no man can sin anymore.
But this point is moot, since you agree that the Law is still in effect. In which case, God saying that it is okay for the Israelites to buy the children of strangers and keep them as property is actively condoning slavery. Of children, no less.
I would agree that if God's commandments were nothing more than instructions on how to treat the slaves you acquire, then they might simply be attempts to make slavemasters behave well without specifically saying that slavery is okay. But God went too far is telling His chosen people, "here are the sorts of people you may take as slaves." How that can be seen as anything but the condoning of slavery, I have no idea.
Had God wanted to forbid slavery, he could have offered instructions for how to take care of the slaves one already had, and also specifically forbidden the acquisition of any new slaves. He forbids plenty of other behaviors, why not that one?
The take-home message: "You should be killed if you're disrespectful to your parents, but go right ahead and make slaves of your enemies and strangers' kids."
God appears to be crystal-clear on what is sin and what isn't. "Free will" isn't about re-interpreting God's Word, and it's not even really about not obeying the Law. After all, even Jesus said that being a stickler for the Law should be something left for the lawyers (and He said so pejoratively).
And because you are saved, Robb, you shouldn't even be worried about it. Sure, God's commands for people to take slaves make your Saviour look a little less pristine, but I'm sure you're aware that there is a time and a purpose for everything under Heaven, even if it is reprehensible to you personally. You certainly shouldn't be saying that God doesn't condone slavery when it's clear that He does, because (a) thinking you know God's will better than Moses is surely hubris, and (b) by defending God erroneously (even though you've got the best of intentions), you're distracting away from Jesus' real Gospel. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:18:18 [Permalink]
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Oh, one more thing:Originally posted by Robb
...just as the Bible regulates divorce. |
Jesus specifically forbade divorce except if a wife cheats on her husband (Matthew 5:32). (We can also discuss the rampant sexism in the Bible if you'd like.) In no place in the Bible does God say, "You should not keep slaves." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 08:41:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, one more thing:Originally posted by Robb
...just as the Bible regulates divorce. |
Jesus specifically forbade divorce except if a wife cheats on her husband (Matthew 5:32). (We can also discuss the rampant sexism in the Bible if you'd like.) In no place in the Bible does God say, "You should not keep slaves."
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I do not know if God condones slavery but He sure does allow it, much like He allows rape, murder, theft and this http://www.ignitermedia.com/products/iv/singles/570/99-Balloons. I know you do not believe that the Bible is true, but this is where I am coming from as one who does believe it is true. Job Chapter 38 says:
JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
JOB 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
JOB 38:6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone--
JOB 38:7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
JOB 38:8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
JOB 38:9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
JOB 38:10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
JOB 38:11 when I said, `This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
JOB 38:12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
JOB 38:13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
JOB 38:14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
JOB 38:15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
JOB 38:16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
JOB 38:17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?
JOB 38:18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
JOB 38:19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
JOB 38:20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
JOB 38:21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
JOB 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
JOB 38:23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
JOB 38:24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
JOB 38:25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
JOB 38:26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
JOB 38:27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
JOB 38:28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
JOB 38:29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
JOB 38:30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
JOB 38:31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
JOB 38:32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
JOB 38:33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's dominion over the earth?
JOB 38:34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
JOB 38:35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, `Here we are'?
JOB 38:36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind?
JOB 38:37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
JOB 38:38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
JOB 38:39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
JOB 38:40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
JOB 38:41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
JOB 39:1 "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
JOB 39:2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
JOB 39:3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
JOB 39:4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
JOB 39:5 "Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied his ropes?
JOB 39:6 I gave him the wasteland as his home,
the salt flats as his habitat.
JOB 39:7 He laughs at the commotion in the town;
he does not hear a driver's shout.
JOB 39:8 He ranges the hills for his pasture
and searches for any green thing.
JOB 39:9 "Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will he stay by your manger at night?
JOB 39:10 Can you hold him to the furrow with a harness?
Will he till the valleys behind you?
JOB 39:11 Will you rely on him for his great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to him?
JOB 39:12 Can you trust him to bring in your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?
JOB 39:13 "The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
but they cannot compare with the pinions and feathers of the stork.
JOB 39:14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
JOB 39:15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
JOB 39:16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
JOB 39:17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
JOB 39:18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
JOB 39:19 "Do you give the horse his strength
or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
JOB 39:20 Do you make him leap like a locust,
striking terror with his proud snorting?
JOB 39:21 He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength,
and charges into the fray.
JOB 39:22 He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
he does not shy away from the sword.
JOB 39:23 The quiver rattles against his side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
JOB 39:24 In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground;
he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
JOB 39:25 At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, `Aha!'
He catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
JOB 39:26 "Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread his wings toward the south?
JOB 39:27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high?
JOB 39:28 He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold.
JOB 39:29 From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar.
JOB 39:30 His young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there is he."
This is one of my favorite passages in the Bible. Basically, if you can create everything then you can end slavery yourself. Even though you do not believe in God how can you say slavery is wrong when you do not even know how we got here, let alone be able to create the universe. You probably know less then 1 billionth of what there is to know, yet you are 100% sure there is no God. I do not know much about the universe as well but I do know the one who created it.
God does not need to be defended from my point of view. You probably know the Bible better than most Christians and you have made your choice. I wish you would reconsider.
Now back to slavery. I do not know why God allows/condones slavery, but I do trust he knows infinitely more than I do and that there is a purpose.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 08:46:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, one more thing:Originally posted by Robb
...just as the Bible regulates divorce. |
Jesus specifically forbade divorce except if a wife cheats on her husband (Matthew 5:32). (We can also discuss the rampant sexism in the Bible if you'd like.) In no place in the Bible does God say, "You should not keep slaves."
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Paul added that if one of the spouses is a non-believer, then the non-believer can divorce and believer is absolved and can re-marry. Just FYI. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 08:49:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
This is one of my favorite passages in the Bible. Basically, if you can create everything then you can end slavery yourself. Even though you do not believe in God how can you say slavery is wrong when you do not even know how we got here, let alone be able to create the universe. You probably know less then 1 billionth of what there is to know, yet you are 100% sure there is no God. I do not know much about the universe as well but I do know the one who created it. |
Is this the old "morality can only come from god"?
How can I say slavery is wrong? Easy, just apply the "Golden Rule."
Now back to slavery. I do not know why God allows/condones slavery, but I do trust he knows infinitely more than I do and that there is a purpose.
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So now you agree the Bible does condone slavery?
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:22:49 [Permalink]
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IMO, the problems lies in the fact that many christians believe that absolute morals come from the bible, when the real deal is that there were a lot of things in the bible that today not even the most fundamental christian can uphold as "moral" so interpretations creep in. The old cherry picking, what should be taken as literal and what not.
By the way, not all christians take the bible literally. But then, some hollier than thou christians come along and say that true christians should take the bible literally.
Exodus 21:20-21 "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
(money=property)
cheers
perrodetokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 19:12:35 [Permalink]
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Two of the Ten Commandments specifically forbid murder and theft, so it'd be a tough case to make that He condones either one (except, of course, for those times He told people to go slaughter children).I know you do not believe that the Bible is true, but this is where I am coming from as one who does believe it is true. Job Chapter 38 says:
...
This is one of my favorite passages in the Bible. Basically, if you can create everything then you can end slavery yourself. |
Yes, but the question of why God created slavery in the first place is only tangental to the question we've been adressing of late: does God condone slavery?| Even though you do not believe in God how can you say slavery is wrong when you do not even know how we got here, let alone be able to create the universe. |
It's quite easy. The ethic of reciprocity is far older than Jesus, and He happened to preach it. If you follow it, you would think that you'd only condone slavery yourself if you would be okay with being a slave yourself. You know what I'm talking about: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. More people, including Bible-worshipping uber-Christians, should follow this ethic. The world would be a much better place. (And the ethic of reciprocity can be worked out from basic human experiences - no Divine revelation is required.)| You probably know less then 1 billionth of what there is to know, yet you are 100% sure there is no God. |
Nope. I am only very sure that no evidence of any god's existence has been shown to me or found by me, and I can see no necessity to include a god as an explanation of anything. In other words, if God exists, He hasn't made Himself known to me by any reliable means. And so, He makes no impact on my life at a personal level, and only impacts me on other levels as self-assured (but often well-intended) missionaries attempt to foist God onto me. (Edited to note that the previous wasn't referring to you specifically, Robb. You're not "foisting."  )| I do not know much about the universe as well but I do know the one who created it. |
So you say.| God does not need to be defended from my point of view. |
Then why have you done so?| You probably know the Bible better than most Christians and you have made your choice. |
Thank you.| I wish you would reconsider. |
I understand that, but I'm not going to bow to the demands of the schoolyard bully that's described in the Bible.| Now back to slavery. I do not know why God allows/condones slavery, but I do trust he knows infinitely more than I do and that there is a purpose. |
Granting the truth of the Bible for argument's sake, I would have to agree. If I might quote Ecclesiastes 3:To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. More importantly, though, to the point you're making, is Ecclesiastes 3:17I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. In other words, because there is a time for everything, it's only for God to judge what's a sin and what isn't. If there's a time for everything, then there is a time for slavery, murder, rape, abortion, homosexuality, theft, disrespecting one's parents, wearing clothes spun from two different fibers, etc.. There must even be a time for hating God. And it's not for you or I to judge any particular acts as good or bad, because we lack the power to show the actor the ultimate consequences of his actions (Ecc 3:22).
But I must be reading that book wrong. The author goes to great lengths to repeatedly tell us that the only thing we should worry about is our own happiness, because we can't know if anything we do is ultimately good or evil. This is clearly in contradiction to the New Testament and elsewhere (even Ecc 12:13), where we're told that we only need follow some simple rules in order to get good with God. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 19:15:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, one more thing:Originally posted by Robb
...just as the Bible regulates divorce. |
Jesus specifically forbade divorce except if a wife cheats on her husband (Matthew 5:32). (We can also discuss the rampant sexism in the Bible if you'd like.) In no place in the Bible does God say, "You should not keep slaves."
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I do not know if God condones slavery but He sure does allow it, much like He allows rape, murder, theft and this http://www.ignitermedia.com/products/iv/singles/570/99-Balloons. |
From the link:
99 BALLOONS
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(emphasis mine)
A sobbing story for sure, but such is life.
What I'm curious about is where do the checks end up?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 19:21:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Paul added that if one of the spouses is a non-believer, then the non-believer can divorce and believer is absolved and can re-marry. Just FYI. |
Paul. [snort] What the heck did he know?
Seriously, that's news to me. You got a chapter-and-verse citation for that? Not that I don't believe you (it sounds about right), I just want to know from where it comes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 19:53:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Job Chapter 38 says: |
It's a good piece of poetry.
It's easy to get awe-struck by the sheer enormity of all there is.
But saying that God did it, seems to me just plain laziness.
If God in his infinite wisdom and omnipotence know all those things he brags about in that Job chapter, then why does he keep that secret for himself? There are earth-shattering revelations in there, but do them rhyme with what science has discovered? Obviously, Job was written allegorically. Written for scientifically ignorant people. My bet is, written by a scientifically ignorant author, since so much of it doesn't make sense.
The Universe is an awesome place to be in, I grant you that. And learning the secrets of it is an adventure. I don't see any reason why I should let a belief in God keep me from finding out the truth about the reality in which I live. He (in his infinite wisdom) hasn't divulged any secrets about nature to me, so he can shove his "good book" where the papers can be put to good use (in the restroom). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bible and Slavery
