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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2007 : 12:36:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Coelacanth said:
Evidence stands for itself...
So do those books, they are detailed transcripts of history brought by men regarded by many as more than trustworthy.
The evidence of their truth lays in testimony, some weak and some stronger, but we have a more philosophical view of the religions of the world and that they contribute each other.
These books were very much authentic, yet it is unfortunate that some have been altered or tampered with.
In the end, my claim still stands, they are the books of god. |
I'd ask you to provide some specific examples of that evidence, but your pattern has become clear. You will just grandstand and insist that your position is correct and ignore all requests for evidence and refuse to be engaged in a discussion about specifics.
So, you are nothing but a hypocrit like Billy. Thank you for the clarification. |
Yep, when it comes to hypocrisy, I'm up to my neck. Man I love being a hypocrite, you should have been at the last hypocrite awards. I got the bronze medal, of course Darwin was standing next to me with Silver and Satan was at the top with gold.
Originally posted by Dude
You accept the word of bronze age desert nomads for a claim to the divinity of your holy book.... but you refuse to accept things like ERVs and the analysis of human chromosome 2 as evidence for common descent.
Unreal. |
In one case we're questioning morals and in the other we're guessing the beginning of the universe.
Two completely different concepts dude.
And living in the desert doesn't make you any less susceptible of lies than we are. As a matter of fact I think we lie a lot more today... |
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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 12:38:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Coelacanth
Bacteria metabolising nylon so much that they grow hands and feet and walk around. |
Strawman.| Our cells becoming so sickled that we grow wings and fly away? |
Strawman.
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Lol, it was just some humour to pontificate how referencing those would mean nothing...
Not a strawman at all, I wasn't misrepresenting anyone but my own understanding of the phenomenon. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2007 : 12:43:09 [Permalink]
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| That wasn't a red herring, it was a rather concise question. I'm not sure what you found misleading about a simple question. |
You said: "So lips on jaws have no use?" I considered that a red herring.
But I see now that you were just trying to be a smartass. My bad, I misinterpreted.
As I'm sure that you didn't open that link either, I was remiss in that I failed to elaborate a little on the Burgess Shale fossil bed beyond mentioning that it is unique and from the Mid-Cambrian. Soft tissues require special conditions to fossilize; very fast burial in a very fine-grained sediment. This is what makes them so very rare elsewhere.
Just for the hell of it, what are your thoughts on radiometric dating?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 13:13:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Just for the hell of it, what are your thoughts on radiometric dating?
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Pretty trustworthy, definitely following some form of order.
Some do have questions on their reliability and I had come up with a few ways they may be a little unreliable (cosmic ray spallation etc), but... overall I'd say they were trustworthy.
Why'd you ask? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2007 : 16:16:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coelacanth
Originally posted by filthy
Just for the hell of it, what are your thoughts on radiometric dating?
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Pretty trustworthy, definitely following some form of order.
Some do have questions on their reliability and I had come up with a few ways they may be a little unreliable (cosmic ray spallation etc), but... overall I'd say they were trustworthy.
Why'd you ask?
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Just wondering......
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 18:08:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coelacanth
Originally posted by JohnOAS
Do you really mean this? Have you come to your conclusions from first principles, revelation or some other method I cannot imagine?
Surely, if you had reviewed the various positions on such matters, and there are many, you would soon discover that your ideas, at least those that you've presented in sufficient detail, are far from unusual or unpopular. So far, there's really nothing you've said that hasn't been discussed at great length all over the place.
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No I've come to my conclusions from reaseaching things for myself.
Many of my ideas I've found to not be anywhere.
The vestigial stuff you people decided to question me on led the debate in a different direction, but most of my ideas are unique (I think). |
Any chance of sharing one of these unique ideas as an example?
I'm not saying that you don't have any, just that I've not yet seen anything unique from you posted here. That may be deliberate on your part, but, if so, you have to be aware that it's not going to do do much for your credibility amongst those who like to employ the scientific method when evaluating a claim.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 10/30/2007 18:09:21 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 19:03:31 [Permalink]
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Coelacanth I do not see how your reply satisfies Dude's request for evidence.
Originally posted by Coelacanth
Originally posted by Dude
Where is your evidence that these books are anything other than stories recorded by ancient people?
Surely you aren't a hypocrit like Billy. So you MUST have some evidence for your claim of a divine origin for the books you listed. |
Evidence stands for itself...
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This is an opinion.
Originally posted by Coelacanth
So do those books, they are detailed transcripts of history brought by men regarded by many as more than trustworthy.
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Let's keep it simple. Who actually wrote the four gospels? When? What is it about their character that made them trustworthy?
Originally posted by Coelacanth
The evidence of their truth lays in testimony, some weak and some stronger, but we have a more philosophical view of the religions of the world and that they contribute each other.
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How do testimonials, strong or weak, constsitute evidence?
Originally posted by Coelacanth
These books were very much authentic, yet it is unfortunate that some have been altered or tampered with.
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Were the books in their original form written by men? Who were they again?
Originally posted by Coelacanth
In the end, my claim still stands, they are the books of god. Regardless of whether they are still so today.
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Your claim is still just your opinion. In what way does that satisfy the request for evidence?
Originally posted by Coelacanth
I know atheists tend to assume the writers were fabricators, liars and/or madmen, but that's a baseless assumption which holds no grounding at all.
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Some also believe that they simply co-opted stories and tradition that predate their recording in the various books of the bible.
edited: of course ... |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 10/30/2007 19:04:47 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 19:26:05 [Permalink]
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First off, it is clear after reading the three pages since I last posted and went off to work this morning that I can't really play much of a part in this debate. I just don't have the time for it.
Also, I see that the debate is heating up but I don't see anything new. No offense Coelacanth but I was hoping that you would bring something new to the ID debate, at least on these forums, beyond the usual attack on evolution. How about letting us in on why we should actually consider ID with something more than a “God did it” or in the parlance of IDist's, a designer, which is pretty much the same thing? Just because you find the evidence for evolution on the grand scale unconvincing is not an argument for ID. It's an argument from personal incredulity. If you have something like an actual competing theory, I would love to hear it. Bring it on.
I need to make this point too. God or a designer does not win by default, even in you could provide evidence that would demolish evolution, which you haven't done. Only a theory that better explains the diversity of life than evolution does will supplant evolution as the best theory. If you are unable to make a serious case for the ID hypothesis then you are just pissing into a wind over here.
Anyhow, my hope is that cooler heads will prevail in this thread, and yet, I well understand the frustration that some of you are feeling…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 20:22:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coelacanth
Originally posted by Siberia
What I don't understand is the almost irrational (or at least baseless) rejection that things can add up to small changes
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things can add up to small changes, but then what things?
Bacteria metabolising nylon so much that they grow hands and feet and walk around.
Our cells becoming so sickled that we grow wings and fly away?
What changes have we observed do you think can accumulate into larger changes or the evolution myth we know of today?
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That's rather hypocritical of you, first crying foul for straw-men, only to make even more blatant ones yourself.
Suddenly I'm asking myself why we shouldn't let you go on living in your delusion, instead of trying to point you to you your misconceptions.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 20:51:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coelacanth
Not only is evolution highly unlikely to have happened |
That's your belief... In my opinion, quite delusional.
| but I can see no possible evidence that could ever convince me that it did. |
That looks like an argument from incredulity, and regardless, absolutely close minded.
| Try and name any evidence that could not otherwise be explained? I can't think of anything. If a reptile looking bird suddenly appeared from thin air and it was announced that it was indeed a transitional form.....would that be evidence of evolution?.......NO. |
That would be an argument for a supernatural entity that might be The Designer, regardless if it was announced to be a transitional form or not. Things do not suddenly appear from thin air.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 20:55:00 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
| Anyhow, my hope is that cooler heads will prevail in this thread |
Prevail? There is nothing to prevail against. Fish-boy has nothing but hot air and empty claims. He refuses to engage in a debate, only participating enough to display how truly ignorant he is while exercising his ability to condescend to others.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 20:55:05 [Permalink]
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Mabuse.....
| Suddenly I'm asking myself why we shouldn't let you go on living in your delusion, instead of trying to point you to you your misconceptions. |
Because this is SFN! |
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Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 22:29:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
First off, it is clear after reading the three pages since I last posted and went off to work this morning that I can't really play much of a part in this debate. I just don't have the time for it.
Also, I see that the debate is heating up but I don't see anything new. No offense Coelacanth but I was hoping that you would bring something new to the ID debate, at least on these forums, beyond the usual attack on evolution. How about letting us in on why we should actually consider ID with something more than a “God did it” or in the parlance of IDist's, a designer, which is pretty much the same thing? Just because you find the evidence for evolution on the grand scale unconvincing is not an argument for ID. It's an argument from personal incredulity. If you have something like an actual competing theory, I would love to hear it. Bring it on.
I need to make this point too. God or a designer does not win by default, even in you could provide evidence that would demolish evolution, which you haven't done. Only a theory that better explains the diversity of life than evolution does will supplant evolution as the best theory. If you are unable to make a serious case for the ID hypothesis then you are just pissing into a wind over here.
Anyhow, my hope is that cooler heads will prevail in this thread, and yet, I well understand the frustration that some of you are feeling…
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Yes, this is basically what I was saying earlier.
Evidence for evolution is not evidence against creation and evidence for creation is not necessarily evidence against evolution. In science there is very often more than one theory for a single phenomenon
I don't profess to be an IDer. The ID group often sounds a little confused and hard to determine their plot.
I'll give you reasons why I believe this world was Designed, but ID is a rather large group with lots of different beliefs of how things work. So you won't find me claiming to be an ID-ist.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Coelacanth
Not only is evolution highly unlikely to have happened |
That's your belief... In my opinion, quite delusional.
| but I can see no possible evidence that could ever convince me that it did. |
That looks like an argument from incredulity, and regardless, absolutely close minded.
| Try and name any evidence that could not otherwise be explained? I can't think of anything. If a reptile looking bird suddenly appeared from thin air and it was announced that it was indeed a transitional form.....would that be evidence of evolution?.......NO. |
That would be an argument for a supernatural entity that might be The Designer, regardless if it was announced to be a transitional form or not. Things do not suddenly appear from thin air. |
You need to read my post and the above one again.
Read the quote, carefully.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Coelacanth
Originally posted by Siberia
What I don't understand is the almost irrational (or at least baseless) rejection that things can add up |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2007 : 23:11:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coelacanth
...Trusted testimony, the words of Moses, Christ, Mormon and Mohamed...
...Bible, Torah, Koran...
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I see where we're going.
Somehow Coelacanth seems to fish for Personal Testemony (or more likely hearsay) to stand on equal footing with physical evidence in the formulation of a scientific theory.
This could be fun. 
Let me give you a suggestion, Coelacanth (and Bill also). When someone asks you about one of the fundamental principles of the scientific method, repeatability, you can simply say that no matter how many times you read Rome 10:9, it always say the same. How's that for repeatability?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 23:24:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coelacanth
You wouldn't need to demonstrate an entire organ evolving, only a mutation that could lead to one and how more would compliment such.
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Earlier we were talking about fish and lung. How is it so inconcievable that a gas bladder of a fish cannot develope into a functional lung?
The purpose of the gas bladder is to control boyancy, and the lung for respiration. Two completely different functions, yet it's not hard at all go from gas bladder to lung by making microscopic changes. There are two ways a fish fills up it's bladder, one of them being swallowing air from the surface. And it can lower the volume in the bladder by allowing gas (oxygen) to be taken up in the bloodstream to be "exhaled" through the gills.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Fish fin gene gave us the finger
Topic Locked
