|
|
|
Coelacanth
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2007 : 12:49:53 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
The only people who claim that "evolve" means "gets better" are those who don't understand evolutionary theory, or those who - like creationists - are attempting to make a strawman out of the science in order to tear it down and then claim "victory." |
Yeah... that's why I wasn't doing that. I'm not sure what that was supposed to add to the debate.
Originally posted by Dave W.
That took over 350 million years, actually. |
You know what I mean.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Since when is evidence speculative? How could it be? |
Yes, it's just speculation mostly. You know seeing something and then making a few assumptions and then coming to conclusion.
It would actually be very hard (if not impossible) to get anything on the theory that wasn't speculative.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Is there a non-speculative alternative?
|
That would be God. That's not speculative at all. It isn't science, but it's still a possibility and does have several lines of evidence in support of it. |
 |
|
|
dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:13:41 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Coelacanth
That would be God. That's not speculative at all. It isn't science, but it's still a possibility and does have several lines of evidence in support of it. |
Do you have a particular God in mind? If god is left undefined then "God did it." is literally meaningless. (I'd guess that you are refering to the Christian God but I didn't want to make that assumption in case I'm wrong.) |
|
|
|
perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:36:35 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Coelacanth
[Originally posted by perrodetokio
Yeah, HH! I´ve seen the lochness monster, made friends with it and rode on its back... PROVE ME WRONG!
|
There are so many inconsistencies in that.
1. Your testimony not valid (being a random person on the internet and all)
2. The Loch Ness monster is not supernatural, it could very well be some kind of giant Oarfish like creature.
3. If it does exist, no one cares anyway.
4. I have no obligation to either prove you correct or wrong.
|
Love Number 3!  |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
|
|
|
perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:44:44 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by furshur
perrodetokio said
| Yeah, HH! I´ve seen the lochness monster, made friends with it and rode on its back... PROVE ME WRONG! |
Wow, you apparently read the post but clearly did not understand it at all. I suggest you reread what HH wrote!
|
Don´t think so. HH Said (which is correct) that the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. So supporting this I´ve added my stupid comment, like if you could possible prove me wrong on that statement. It is I making the claim who should prove it and not HH to prove me wrong. |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
|
|
|
perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:49:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
| As for the useless ones, it really depends. I've yet to be shown one completely useless structure, yet there are supposed to be some. I've read on a few, but they seemed like baseless speculation on something which was entirely questionable in the first place. |
Eye reminants of cave fish, crustations and amphibians
Eye reminants in some burrowing animals such as moles
Mouth parts of non-feeding flat worms
Mouth parts of non-feeding mayflies & other insects
Our coccyx
Male nipples
Foetal teeth in baleen whales
Foetal teeth in anteaters
Whale's pelvic girdle
Manatee toenails
The degenerate second lung in serpents
The degenerate duvernoy's organs in constricting serpents
And so forth
The woods are full of 'em, these rather pathetic left-overs of evolution.
Science never 'proves' anything. All science does is compile evidence, pro or con on any given subject. That is why evolution is a 'theory' rather than being called the stone fact that it is. Science always leaves it open-ended because there is always the possibility, however remote, that some new evidence might come along to change or even refute it.
As far as science is concerned, 'proof' only counts in mathmatics & whiskey, so let us have a dram or two and speak no more of this proof silliness. No scientific theory will ever be proven.
|
Hey! Male nipples, at least on (some) humans DO have function! Hehe  |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:50:20 [Permalink]
|
Don't worry, perrodetokio. I knew you were joking. Sometimes I also think it's best to make a point through sarcasm.
But back to Coelacanth. Evolution is speculative but the god hypothesis isn't? There are more robust lines of evidence pointing to an interventionist deity than to common descent? Only in Opposite Land.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/24/2007 13:50:50 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:56:08 [Permalink]
|
The link wouldn't open for me, but I did manage to find this and this. You are at least partally correct, although it seems that no firm conclusions have been reached.
I was talking about the "Blind Mole Rat" not the "Naked Mole Rat".
Actually Golden Moles (Afrosoricida), Marsurpial Moles (Notoryctemorphia), Mole Rats (Rodentia) and True Moles (Soricomorpha) are all completely separate groups of creatures, yet they resemble each other in morphology greatly especially for the case of the Golden Mole and the Marsurpial Mole, they were once considered related, but they unfortunately aren't.
I wasn't going to cover the uses of each one, I decided to get one of the worst ones, the Blind Mole Rat, which actually has a layer of skin covering it's eyes. Scientists done tests and found that although they deem it regressive, it does have it's functional importance aswell, which are beyond merely photoperiod perception. |
I was mistaken and that is the problem with common names.
And you see from the research on the Blind Mole Rats, that have the picture ripped out and a wall put over it, the space behind the wall still has it's functions oddly enough. As much as your seedsmagazine article finds it hard to believe, ripped out wall actually does have it's funtions. This shows us how silly it is to make analogies on things we don't truly understand or haven't researched. It seems that all creatures with vestigial structures, have those structures for their own individual and perhaps even unique reasons.
|
PZ Myres
And sooner or later all of these vestigial features either become useful for something else or become dead weight. Again I refer to the serpent's second lung. I've heard these types of things before... People saying how the back bones and urine was poorly designed and how it should be better etc etc... well if you use it wrongly it's going to end up giving you problems I like to say. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the coccyx it's a perfectly functioning part of the body, reasons such as you think it would have been nice if it was somewhere else or that you don't like the lump at the bottom of it are entirely subjective and don't add anything to the debate really.
|
Never the less, it remains a vestigial tail. Well, lets try to avoid tossing things around and debate seriously then. If you say something is vestigial, I'm going to assume you mean vestigial, not something else you were thinking about.
As for the republican politician joke, I'm sorry, I didn't quite get the gist of that. I'm not American, nor do I live there. Hence the constrast in demeanor... |
I like to throw a little sick humor in now & again -- surely you are familiar with out alledged president, G.W. Bush.
Are you trying to instruct me on how to write?
Actually, you were still a little misguided.
|
No, merely a mistake in the identity of a mole rat.
| I did, it doesn't really have anything to offer me. I find them to be a little too biased, not because of any personal benefit, but mainly due to frustration from creationist pressures. Especially stupid creationist pressures... |
Of course Talk Origins is biased! It concerns itself with science, not myth, and, as you say, is constantly attacked by creationists. Unsuccessfully, I might add. I find blowing it off so casually to be the hight of conceit. Have you found any inaccuracies in it? If so, what are they?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2007 : 14:07:45 [Permalink]
|
| That would be God. That's not speculative at all. It isn't science, but it's still a possibility and does have several lines of evidence in support of it. |
I, among others, would be very interested in seeing these lines of 'evidence.'
The existence of some deity or other is certainly a remote possibility; after all, it's a big universe and has possibilities appropriate to it's size. But due to a cosmic lack of evidence, the possibility of that deity being the Flying Spagetti Monster is as good as any. As I have yet to see any evidence of even FSM, I believe in none of it.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 14:38:25 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Coelacanth
Yeah... that's why I wasn't doing that. I'm not sure what that was supposed to add to the debate. |
I'm not sure, either. Why did you bring it up?Yes, I know what you meant. But I also know that the trnasition to land began over 350 million years ago, not just 100 million. Is there a problem with that?| Yes, it's just speculation mostly. You know seeing something and then making a few assumptions and then coming to conclusion. |
You've got a strange concept of the science behind the conclusions.| It would actually be very hard (if not impossible) to get anything on the theory that wasn't speculative. |
But that happens all the time. For example, we can watch as the proportions of alleles in a living population change over time. We can see in the fossil record that species appear, thrive, and die out. The evidence isn't speculative, because the evidence is stuff we can see and touch.| That would be God. That's not speculative at all. |
As others have indicated, this is news to me, too.| It isn't science, but it's still a possibility and does have several lines of evidence in support of it. |
Oh, it definitely isn't science, so what would it matter if there's evidence? Providing evidence for God, after all, is nothing more than a misguided attempt to give scientific rigor to religion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 15:12:51 [Permalink]
|
| Yes, it's just speculation mostly. You know seeing something and then making a few assumptions and then coming to conclusion. |
Coelacanth, I believe you have a quite honest misconception of how scientists work and think. You're way off target when you state "it's mostly just speculation." I suggest you find a good narrative book about scientists doing research. I think you would be surprised to find how careful they are about making conclusions. (I hope others may suggest some titles.)
"Speculation" does come into science, in the stage of deciding what to study. For instance, a scientist studying birds on an isolated island might find two species, one with flight, the other flightless. He might speculate that the two had a common ancestor. But he wouldn't publish this speculation as a conclusion. Instead, his speculation might lead him to look for fossils of a common ancestor. Then, if he found such, he could write up his conclusions for publication.
The scientific world is a ravening battlefield of oneupmanship and competition. Incautious conclusions can make scientists look foolish, and ruin their chances of getting tenure, work, or funding. They cannot afford to leap to conclusions, as you seem to think. They have to be cautious!
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 17:42:44 [Permalink]
|
Coelacanth said:
The reason why I doubt the theory is because I'm yet to find a single line of evidence for it that isn't entirely speculative. It may have happened, it may not, but I don't believe so, not until shown otherwise.
|
You'll have to do better than handwaving. Pick a specific piece of evidence for evolution then start a new thread, in that thread try to make your point about this evidence being "speculative". (speculative evidence... an oxymoron if there ever was was... heh)
| That would be God. That's not speculative at all. |
Ah, yes. The root of your error. A previously held notion that is directly contradicted by science (ToE and abiogenesis in particular) that you are unwilling to let go of.
Also in a new thread you should try to explain to us exactly how your god isn't speculative. I don't expect anything new, but you never know, so please, head on down to the religion folder and give it a go!
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2007 : 17:50:10 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
Edit: The naked mole rat is not related to moles; rather it is a rodent and the only known mammal with a true hive society. They also regulate their body temperatures by going deeper or shallower in their hive burrows -- almost exothermic. They are fascinating animals and well worth researching just for the pleasure of knowing about them. |
You mean ectothermic, right?
I couldn't remember the term myself, and had to look it up. A wikipedia search on "cold blooded" quickly sorted me out. So your typo (and I suspect that's all it was, perhaps exacerbated by an enthusiastic spell checker) still had a positive outcome!
|
John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 10/24/2007 17:50:54 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 21:56:29 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Coelacanth
And also, I am a violinist, but I don't restrict myself to just one instrument. I played the violin earlier, so now I play the flute, no problem with that right?
|
A violinist doesn't toot his own horn...
 |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 22:36:48 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Coelacanth
Reminds me of what my grandfather used to say, it can't harm you unless you think it can... he meant it on a different level, but it still applies.
Ironically enough it was my other grandfather that went insane researching the thing. People say he was very intelligent, but it's common knowledge where I'm from that those are the effects of delving into matters that don't concern us. Superstition? maybe, but I can't help but notice the pattern.
|
So, what did he do? Read Necronomicon? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/25/2007 : 03:34:36 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JohnOAS
Originally posted by filthy
Edit: The naked mole rat is not related to moles; rather it is a rodent and the only known mammal with a true hive society. They also regulate their body temperatures by going deeper or shallower in their hive burrows -- almost exothermic. They are fascinating animals and well worth researching just for the pleasure of knowing about them. |
You mean ectothermic, right?
I couldn't remember the term myself, and had to look it up. A wikipedia search on "cold blooded" quickly sorted me out. So your typo (and I suspect that's all it was, perhaps exacerbated by an enthusiastic spell checker) still had a positive outcome!
|
I can't believe I wrote that! Good catch, John!
I'm working on something else at the moment and 'exo' & 'endo' are sorta stuck in my mind. Not much of an excuse for sloppy writing, but it's the best I've got.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Fish fin gene gave us the finger
Topic Locked
