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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 10:20:22 [Permalink]
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Thanks for your comments, Dave and Chaloobi.
And Filthy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/01/2007 10:45:14 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
 Posted - 11/02/2007 : 05:42:58 [Permalink]
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This is a toughie for me. Let me make it very clear that I find Fred Phelps and his inbred family to be just about the most repugnant creatures on Earth, and as a nature photographer I've encountered more than my fair share. There are some people in this world whom I can't stand, and Fred Phelps is at least three of them. If he dropped dead at my feet I wouldn't bother looking down, and if he caught fire I wouldn't bother pissing on him to put it out.
But freedom of speech is also very important to me. What his clan does is spiteful, hateful, and almost beyond comprehension (in fact I wouldn't believe somebody could actually do it if the evidence wasn't so plain), but it's still a free speech issue.
Many of you probably recall the incident a few years ago when another supreme asshole, Bart Sibrel, confronted Buzz Aldrin and called him a liar and a thief. Buzz reeled him with a swift one to his jaw. (Should have hit him harder Buzz, should have hit him harder...) When the sniveling prick took it to court the judge ruled in Aldrin's favour, probably citing that there was a perceived threat or something when it was clear from the video that Aldrin was actually in no danger. Obviously the judge decided to let schoolyard justice prevail, and I have no problem with that. Could something similar take place with the WBC crowd? I don't think that their numbers are enough that a full-blown riot would ensue, and they might get the message. Police standing by should of course act to protect the children that they shamelessly drag along, but if the patriarch of the clan got a picket stick up his filthy ass I for one wouldn't care.
Not that I'm endorsing violence or anything... |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 06:05:53 [Permalink]
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| Why did the guy call Buzz Aldrin a liar & theif? Just curious... |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 06:17:08 [Permalink]
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Current wisdom has it that the whole thing will get tossed on First Amendment grounds, but I'm not so sure. If this has been presented as a personal attack, the 1st might not fly.
The ACLU, (my ACLU!  ) has defended these skanks before, and rightly so, but I don't know if they are involved in this case or not. If they are not, then the decision might be a good one because they have their 1st Amendment shit down pat.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 06:32:33 [Permalink]
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They can say whatever they want in public, or on the intertubes, or in paid adverts.
But to harass someone's personal funeral...they were allowed to say what they want, now they have to pay for it. Consider it a very expensive advert. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 07:06:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by HalfMooner
[On the other hand, your Swedish laws and police would probably have stopped the bigoted funeral demonstration at the outset, if not before. In the US, suing for money is often the best or only effective way to get justice.
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Right now, I can't think of anything remotely similar to the funeral picketing, in Sweden.
If sanity among the population follows the classic bell-curve, then Sweden will have an insignificant amount of people, if any at all, who are as bat-shit crazy as the Phelps-clan, thanks to the difference in population size.
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Then there's the fact that the religious are a minority in Sweden. Sweet. You might get a few atheists picketing agnostic funerals, though.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 07:48:47 [Permalink]
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The Rat said:
This is a toughie for me. Let me make it very clear that I find Fred Phelps and his inbred family to be just about the most repugnant creatures on Earth, and as a nature photographer I've encountered more than my fair share. There are some people in this world whom I can't stand, and Fred Phelps is at least three of them. If he dropped dead at my feet I wouldn't bother looking down, and if he caught fire I wouldn't bother pissing on him to put it out.
But freedom of speech is also very important to me. What his clan does is spiteful, hateful, and almost beyond comprehension (in fact I wouldn't believe somebody could actually do it if the evidence wasn't so plain), but it's still a free speech issue.
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Free Speech involves the government censoring of your right to speak. It is not an absolute right, as there are limits. Like "FIRE!" in a crowded room, clearly not protected speech. Inciting others to commit crimes, also not protected speech. Going onto private property to protest, also not protected speech.
This lawsuit is based on privacy issues. The PhelpsKlan absolutely has the right to go to a public place (parks, streets, any municipal property, etc) and hold up their signs and shout their hate to the skies. They can publish books, websites, and TV programs to their heart's content.
But they don't have the right to force themselves upon private citizens in their private lives on private property. Which is what they are doing by invading the funerals of fallen soldiers.
I think this suit has a solid chance of being upheld. The damages may be reduced, but I thik the judgement will stand.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 09:55:06 [Permalink]
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My ruling is that they were on public property, using their right to free speech based on this, if this is correct:
From 10/16/07 Baltimore Sun
Seven people - three adults and four children - marched on public city property outside Snyder's funeral March 10, 2006, at St. John Church, waving placards expressing their belief that the military's combat losses is a direct result of immoral behavior, including homosexuality, among its ranks.
Members claimed they were on public land at least 1,000 feet from the church. They cited depositions that Albert Snyder said he did not even see their messages on the day of the funeral. Attorneys for the Marine's father have argued he heard about the nature of the protest on the television news later and was traumatized by the experience.
First Amendment experts have said these types of lawsuits often founder because even the most hateful speech is usually protected.
But Bennett said yesterday that Matthew Snyder was a courageous Marine who was not a public figure and so a jury would need to decide whether his family was harmed by the words protesters used at his funeral.
Members of the jury, Bennett said, will need to decide whether the Westboro members were simply protesting a war or "celebrating the death of a soldier" in an extreme and outrageous way that entitles Snyder to compensation.
"The signs did not say 'Get out of Iraq,'" the judge added.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 19:15:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Why did the guy call Buzz Aldrin a liar & theif? Just curious...
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The aforementioned Bart 'Shit for brains' Sibrel is the prime arsehole in the 'Apollo landings were a hoax' crowd. He has confronted a number of the astronauts involved and called them cowards and liars. He calls them thieves because he claims that they are taking money from people for talking about something they didn't do.
He is a brain-dead prick who is undeserving of a shred of personal or professional respect. Everything I said about Phelps applies to him also. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
| Edited by - The Rat on 11/04/2007 09:38:27 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 19:18:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
But they don't have the right to force themselves upon private citizens in their private lives on private property. Which is what they are doing by invading the funerals of fallen soldiers.
I think this suit has a solid chance of being upheld. The damages may be reduced, but I thik the judgement will stand.
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If this is indeed the case then I would withdraw my objection. I would also like to be there so that I could invoke my right to turf people off private property.  |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 19:37:58 [Permalink]
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Well, if they were on public property, the whole thing could be canned on appeal.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 20:30:50 [Permalink]
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Can't say I know the law, but my impression is that what the Phelpses said (verbally, and through their signs) is more the legal issue than whether they were on private or public property. I think that last is irrelevant.
The government did not force a prior restraint upon their expression, and did not punish them afterward. That's proper. But that does not mean they are immune from civil penalty. That which one has a Constitutional right to say may also be that which is deliberately and personally abusive, and which violates privacy of non-public figures.
I have every right to say that NASA never went to the moon. But when I stand outside my neighbor's funeral and tell the world that he personally faked the Apollo landings, that he deserved to die, and that his family put him up to it, I then open myself to civil action. Such horrific slander should not go unpunished.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/02/2007 20:32:50 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 20:59:04 [Permalink]
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I have every right to say that NASA never went to the moon. But when I stand outside my neighbor's funeral and tell the world that he personally faked the Apollo landings, that he deserved to die, and that his family put him up to it, I then open myself to civil action. Such horrific slander should not go unpunished.
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Yes, this is one of the many things I know nothing about and won't let that stop me from yammering on about it, but I don't think they said that that particular soldier did anything, did they? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 11/02/2007 21:02:56 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 21:05:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I have every right to say that NASA never went to the moon. But when I stand outside my neighbor's funeral and tell the world that he personally faked the Apollo landings, that he deserved to die, and that his family put him up to it, I then open myself to civil action. Such horrific slander should not go unpunished.
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Yes, this is one of the many things I know nothing about and won't let that stop me from yammering on about it, but I don't think they said that that particular soldier did anything, and if they did, I'm not aware that that what they said did anyone any real damage. It didn't rise to the level of slander. I read somewhere, please don't quote me as I didn't verify this, but I read somewhere that the judge told the jury to consider whether or not a reasonable person would be offended by what they did. What sense does that make? Reason has little to do with being offended, and every reasonable person has differing degrees of being offended, not to mention unreasonable people who think they're reasonable.
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Well, in a civil case, the decision is up to the jury. They had to go through all this that we are considering, and doubtless much more that we don't much know about. I think they decided correctly, though your opinion may differ. We'll see if it stands.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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At last.....
