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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:34:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
You know what? Your suggestion is bullshit Rob. Since you don't agree that any abortion is okay and made statements to that affect, why would you even propose such a stupid requirement to get an abortion?
What you really want is a total ban on abortions if what you said in the Ron Paul thread is true. You even put it at the top of your list as a the number one reason for who will get your vote!
Robb:
I will only support a candidate that is interested in stopping all abortions, making them illegal is only 10% of the solution. I am sure that abortion has been discussed to great length on this board and this is probably not the thread to do it. (but I will a little)It all hinges on whether one believes a fetus is a person or not. I do, so you can see why it affects me. |
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So why even bring this up? Are you willing to change your position on abortions if ultrasound exam's were required before getting one? If a person takes that information and goes in a direction that you don't approve of, are you willing to let it go? |
You bring up a good point. What I said as my requirements for my vote was incorrect. I did not mean all. The only abortion I think is allowable is when the mothers life is in danger and an abortion could save her life. I think that should be left up to the mother on what to do.
You know what your goal is. So why the bullshit? I submit that you don't actually support what you are suggesting and you are engaging in a less than honest ploy to get what you really want, which is not about information so much as it is about taking another step toward turning this country into a theocracy.
And you have the nerve to complain about atheist indoctrination in another thread when what you would do is make your religious beliefs the law of the land. Give me a break!
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No. I honestly think it would be a good idea but I asked the question to get your ideas. I don't think it would ever fly as a law though. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:35:43 [Permalink]
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| This is what I am afraid of. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:38:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
So you are not for a mother and father having all the knowledge they can before the have an abortion? Isn't that what you speak against God for in the Garden of Eden? That God thinks knowledge is evil?
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Do you think they should have all the knowledge they can before an abortion? Should they be required to take an anatomy and physiology class? You know, so they know everything there is to know about a gestational human before they make this decision.
Perhaps they should also be required to take an economics class, a personal finance class, a sociology class, a pre-natal and post-natal mental development class, see a social worker and a psychologist to help make sure they have every scrap of information about themselves, their relationship, the culture of the United States, and child development they might possibly need to make this decision. They should also be screened for anxiety, stress and depression and administered proper treatment before any decision is made as well. Don't you think?
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Maybe if they took the time to learn these thing they would not have time for sex. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:40:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. If you don't want to or cannot take cae of a child then you need to choose to not have sex.
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How about mandatory chastity belts from puberty onward with a requirement to demonstrate economic independance prior to removal?
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Where can I get one, I have looked at Wal-Mart and couldn't find one. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:41:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Even though sex is bad in religion's eyes,
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Where in the Bible do you get this theology? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:51:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
No. I just want to be able to talk to my children after the class in my own home about anything they have questions about or anything we feel needs to be clarified in terms of what our family believes.
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And you don't have that capability now..... why?
Any school is usually quite willing to share their methodologies and teaching materials with parents. Is there some reason you would not be able to take this upon yourself to be informed of what your children are being taught? Is there some reason that you cannot broach these subjects with your children?
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Yes the school our child goes to sends us the curriculum every 9 weeks and I can e-mail her teacher anytime I want. My child goes to a great school and I did not mean to portray it as anything else. I just do not want my children to learn moral issues from the public school system. That is my job as a parent and not the public school systems.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 03:28:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. If you don't want to or cannot take cae of a child then you need to choose to not have sex.
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How about mandatory chastity belts from puberty onward with a requirement to demonstrate economic independance prior to removal?
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Where can I get one, I have looked at Wal-Mart and couldn't find one.
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Try eBay. |
-Chaloobi
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 11:33:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. If you don't want to or cannot take cae of a child then you need to choose to not have sex.
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How about mandatory chastity belts from puberty onward with a requirement to demonstrate economic independance prior to removal?
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Where can I get one, I have looked at Wal-Mart and couldn't find one.
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Try eBay.
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Thanks
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 11:57:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
If I could control women I would make them think of the consequences before they have sex. If you have sex using contraception or not you need to understand that a child could be created and have the means to take care of the child. If you don't want to or cannot take cae of a child then you need to choose to not have sex.
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How about mandatory chastity belts from puberty onward with a requirement to demonstrate economic independance prior to removal?
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Where can I get one, I have looked at Wal-Mart and couldn't find one.
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Try eBay.
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Thanks
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-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 12:18:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I just do not want my children to learn moral issues from the public school system. That is my job as a parent and not the public school systems. |
I thoroughly agree with those statements. The trouble is that morality is subjective, and so one person's moral injunction is another person's statement of fact. For example, "some people are homosexuals" is a statement of fact, without moral judgement. But, certain folks take the fact that such a statement is uttered by an authority figure - like a teacher - to say, "it is okay that some people are homosexuals," and they don't agree with that moral sentiment, even if their child's teacher never taught it.
Edit: On the other hand, children in public schools teach each other morality all the time. It's an important part of socialization. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 12:31:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
I just do not want my children to learn moral issues from the public school system. That is my job as a parent and not the public school systems. |
I thoroughly agree with those statements. The trouble is that morality is subjective, and so one person's moral injunction is another person's statement of fact. For example, "some people are homosexuals" is a statement of fact, without moral judgement. But, certain folks take the fact that such a statement is uttered by an authority figure - like a teacher - to say, "it is okay that some people are homosexuals," and they don't agree with that moral sentiment, even if their child's teacher never taught it. |
I try not to be that sensitive.
Edit: On the other hand, children in public schools teach each other morality all the time. It's an important part of socialization.
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I agree and this is part of the reason our children go(will go)to public school. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 15:46:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I try not to be that sensitive. |
And that's why I didn't say, "Robb and certain folks." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 19:49:38 [Permalink]
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Since Robb stated that he would vote for a candidate that could put an end to all abortions, I can see a dilemma forming.
Now, abstinense-only have miserably failed as a method to lower the rate of abortion.
Which means that candidates who wants abstinense only cannot be a viable candidate for Robb. However, good sex education which includes detailed information on the safety and handling of contraceptives does lower the abortion rate.
Where will Robb find a candidate which fits both bills?
How much difference will a ban on abortions do for abortion rates, compared to a really good sex ed?
What will Robb do if evidence shows that abortion ban is less effective than good sex-ed? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Halcyon Dayz
New Member
Netherlands
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 15:40:36 [Permalink]
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| Does anybody actually have an insight on the abortion rates in the US (or rather, number of abortions performed on US-citizens) before 1973? |
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. -- Don Marquis
"The universe is a strange, practically incomprehensible place. But that is how things are, and no amount of wishing that things are really the way we perceive them will change that." - The Black Cat |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 19:55:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Halcyon Dayz
Does anybody actually have an insight on the abortion rates in the US (or rather, number of abortions performed on US-citizens) before 1973?
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I think that some local law enforcement had an inkling of what was going on when women started dying of sepsis and major bleeds when they had illegal abortions performed. Only an inkling, not a real number.
Straight Dope did some research into this which I verified with more than a few searches of my own returning documents I had to piece together from trusted sources (universities, CDC, etc)
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040528.html
In 1936, the number of deaths due to abortions was estimated at approximately 6,800. Assumed mortality was 1% of all abortions performed. No hard figures exist due to the procedure being illegal. With the advances in medicine following the second world war, that number dropped to 39 in 1972. It is assumed that the demand was flat and the mortality rate decreased significantly with the removal of the birth control ban from the Comstock Act.
One of the compelling arguments for legal abortions is the women's health issues when the abortions started being done by competent medical practioners in sterile conditions instead of the back-alley (or more likely kitchen table) abortionists who rarely sweated hygene or follow up care.
Banning abortions won't stop them or even slow them down. It'll just drive them underground again. It's just another way for the Religious Reich to insist that people wanting abortions risk their lives. Unlike the politicians, I will say that I believe that the rate of abortion mortality will rise due to less than perfect conditions and lack of follow up care, but not to the level of 1936. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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