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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2007 : 18:26:32 [Permalink]
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I'm of two minds about this issue.
Service people in Iraq are being used in, not so much a war, but an unjustified clusterf**k. I ardently sympathize with them for the dangerous and morally ambiguous situation they have been placed in by Bush and the NeoCons. I believe few of them, given their druthers, would be there. To give them "thanks" would imply that I agree with the way they are being used, and I do not, though my heart goes out to the poor bastards as fellow citizens, most of them poor or working-class.
Those serving in Afghanistan, including soldiers from all over the world, are, IMO, attempting to do a service to that country and to the world at large. The Taliban regime was not just bad for Afghanistan, but for the world in general, as witnessed by 9/11.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 20:07:49 [Permalink]
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But it isn't illegal by any standard we have been able to find in our previous threads on the topic, and to my knowledge no legal expert has managed to find a ligitmate way to call it illegal either.
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What I was responding to was this bit.
It's not that I have a problem that we disagree here, but that you think you have the only viewpoint. There is much data that says that this war is illegal, many experts that have said so, and you've offered nowhere anything but your own assertion that all information that disagrees with your world view does not exist.
Many legal experts say it is illegal. I think even George Bush's handlers knew they were changing the way that they hoped international law was to be viewed.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 20:33:07 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | You can send a free postcard printed by Xerox to a serviceperson. |
I am no more thankful to military servicepersons than I am to anyone who does a job that potentially makes the world a better place. I also don't agree with almost all the the military actions taken by the US government - although for that I blame those who gave the orders, not those who pledged to follow those orders as a career move. Anyway, it is a job. We don't need to romanticize the military. Granted, it is often a dangerous job. But how is that unlike being a trucker or fisherman in Alaska, which are both very dangerous? Actually, those jobs are more dangerous than most serviceman jobs, and usually don't pay as well. Anyway, servicemen and women don't need a thank you card. They need good health care with decent pay and benefits. And if they have that and their freedom and people in their lives that they care about, that's enough. Let's not make it out as if there is something so special about them. I've known people in the military. They are normal people like anyone else, going in, and coming out. Some of them do great things. Others do horrible things. Like everyone else. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 08:59:59 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| Then I'll ask you to at least have sympathy on us and avoid making things worse. |
The thing is.... I'm not interested in tolerating that kind of crap from anyone. But many people will just roll their eyes and ignore it if it isn't vulgar as well as hostile, demeaning, and insulting.
What is the chance that gorgo's form of blatant hostility would go unchallenged by mods/admin, despite the fact that it derails topics and eliminates the possibility of reasoned debate, if someone didn't get pissed off by it and cuss him out?
My money says near to zero.
Would you have moderated this thread if I hadn't? I'm not trying to say that my response is any better or more acceptable than gorgo's crap, just that I think you'd let one pass and not the other.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2007 : 09:48:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
But it isn't illegal by any standard we have been able to find in our previous threads on the topic, and to my knowledge no legal expert has managed to find a ligitmate way to call it illegal either.
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What I was responding to was this bit.
It's not that I have a problem that we disagree here, but that you think you have the only viewpoint. There is much data that says that this war is illegal, many experts that have said so, and you've offered nowhere anything but your own assertion that all information that disagrees with your world view does not exist.
Many legal experts say it is illegal. I think even George Bush's handlers knew they were changing the way that they hoped international law was to be viewed.
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Dude:
Should it be illegal? Yes. |
Response:
Gorgo:
We understand that you don't want it to be illegal… |
That kind of hyperbolic language is offensive Gorgo.
And who is the We that you refer to? Was your interpretation of Dude's post supposed to be self evident to all of us?
I don't know if it's a problem of communication skills or if you really believe anyone who doesn't agree with you on certain subjects deserve to be vilified. I have been on the receiving end of that kind of vilification by you and really, it has pissed me off too.
And it really doesn't matter what facts you have that show that the war is illegal. That is subject to debate. And that debate can be had without accusing the person you are debating of bad intent, which is what your response did.
I was not happy with Dude's response to your taunting, but I understand it. Don't think for a second that because you didn't use expletives that you were not being offensive. The fact is, you ignored what Dude actually said as though that part didn't matter…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 11:12:08 [Permalink]
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| Taken to PM as requested. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 11:13:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I'm of two minds about this issue...To give them "thanks" would imply that I agree with the way they are being used, and I do not, though my heart goes out to the poor bastards as fellow citizens, most of them poor or working-class. |
Me too. What offends me is the neo-con co-opting of the "thank the troops" message. The "Support the Troops" message is code for "Support Bush and Cheney." It is leveraged to place anyone who questions the Iraq war into a frame labeled "unpatriotic". But a lot of people aren't falling for it. Impeachment is Patriotic!
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Those serving in Afghanistan, including soldiers from all over the world, are, IMO, attempting to do a service to that country and to the world at large. The Taliban regime was not just bad for Afghanistan, but for the world in general, as witnessed by 9/11. |
Yes. And let's not forget that Taliban representatives were welcomed to Texas by Bush's people long before 9/11.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 11:31:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
The thing is.... I'm not interested in tolerating that kind of crap from anyone. |
I'm not asking you to tolerate it. I'm asking you to be as intolerant and vulgar as you want to be about Gorgo's abusiveness, but in an email or PM to me.| Would you have moderated this thread if I hadn't? |
Maybe next time, you'll give us a chance to answer that question empirically instead of hypothetically. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 11:50:46 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, why don't you enlighten us on why no UN member has brought the legality issue to the UN security council and why no nation-member of the International Criminal Court has asked that court to rule on the legality of the Iraq war.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 11:55:21 [Permalink]
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| Dude, why don't you "enlighten us" (since we're using non-offensive dialogue here) on why this is relevant? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 12:18:41 [Permalink]
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Again, why don't you "enlighten us" "morons" as to why this is relevant? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2007 : 12:59:28 [Permalink]
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I recall another war where the legality was in question; another bullshit war that the assholes in the government dragged on for too many years. Where was my Attaboy? Where was 'mooner's Attaboy? Where was the Attaboy for the guys & gal on The Wall?
This is no more than a cheap ploy to fluff a corporate image. Fuck Xerox!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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FYI: Lets Say Thanks
