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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 17:16:45 [Permalink]
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I concur with the negative remarks about the book! And its Yahweh is such a monster! Yeshua preached limited love: he allowed slavery and mysogyny.
He was a man of his times, not an eternal god, a miraclemonger and saviour-god among all the others. And his ethic is questionable!He distrusted reason, hailing faith, the I just say so of credulity!
Merry Mithras Celebration! |
Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2007 : 19:46:42 [Permalink]
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Cune said:
| I would agree that there is nothing particularly unique, but I suspect that there is material that is independently original, or at least represents something different from the prevailing thought of the day in the region. |
What I meant to say was that none of the moral or ethical rules found in the bible represent original ideas, even for the times/places it was written, so far as I know.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 19:53:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Cune said:
| I would agree that there is nothing particularly unique, but I suspect that there is material that is independently original, or at least represents something different from the prevailing thought of the day in the region. |
What I meant to say was that none of the moral or ethical rules found in the bible represent original ideas, even for the times/places it was written, so far as I know. |
Right. And my understanding-- albeit stated without 100% confidence-- is that in some instances, things like Biblical law codes (i.e. things in Exodus, Leviticus, etc.) differed to some extend from other extant Near Eastern law codes were significant and noteworthy. Such as punishment for killing certain people in Hammurabi being fines, while for those same groups in the Bible only being capital crimes. That is, that the Biblical law places a significantly higher price on human life, suggesting its value.
That's but one example, and I will have to check references to see if I've recalled this distinction clearly. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 21:21:52 [Permalink]
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Seems like a variation on a theme to me. I will have to defer to your vastly greater expertise and knowledge in this area!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 00:46:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Dude
Cune said:
| I would agree that there is nothing particularly unique, but I suspect that there is material that is independently original, or at least represents something different from the prevailing thought of the day in the region. |
What I meant to say was that none of the moral or ethical rules found in the bible represent original ideas, even for the times/places it was written, so far as I know. |
Right. And my understanding-- albeit stated without 100% confidence-- is that in some instances, things like Biblical law codes (i.e. things in Exodus, Leviticus, etc.) differed to some extend from other extant Near Eastern law codes were significant and noteworthy. Such as punishment for killing certain people in Hammurabi being fines, while for those same groups in the Bible only being capital crimes. That is, that the Biblical law places a significantly higher price on human life, suggesting its value.
That's but one example, and I will have to check references to see if I've recalled this distinction clearly.
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Old Testament law dished out death as the main punishment for a great variety of "offenses." including gathering firewood on the Sabbath, sorcery, divination, acting as a medium, and sacrificing to false gods, rape, incest, and homosexuality.
In that context, it seems to me that death being the penalty for murder doesn't much show the Hebrews were somehow more enlightened about the value of life than their more civilized Fertile Crescent contemporaries. Indeed, this might argue the exact opposite, making them look as barbaric as Old West citizens who regularly lynched those suspected of cattle rustling and horse theft, as well as murder.
Life was cheap in the American frontier. I suspect the mindset of the ancient Hebrews was similar.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/08/2007 00:48:39 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 06:17:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Seems like a variation on a theme to me. I will have to defer to your vastly greater expertise and knowledge in this area! |
That could be. And while I'm not Biblical scholar, I have had some exposure to what experts have to say on the topic. For instance, in his Commentary to Exodus 21:20-21, Nahum Sarna writes,| This law-- the protection of slaves from maltreatment by their masters-- is found nowhere else in the entire existing corpus of ancient Near Eastern legislation. It represents a qualitative transformation in social and human values. . . |
Now, as I noted before, we have nothing from Iron Age states like Moab or Edom to compare this to, so Sarna is left with a fairly biased sample. Moreover, he belongs to that group of scholars who seeks to see a special uniqueness and superiority regarding Israel, so his interpretation of this law as one that "represents a qualitative transformation in social and human values" may not be held by all scholars. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 07:25:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
One only needs to look and see how many Christians regularly "sin" by their own self-professed standards to realize that they don't seem to consider eternal damnation a serious possibility. |
The Bible clearly teaches that no person is without sin even Christians. It also teaches how we can know we are saved so we do not need to worry about eternal punishment.
| Nothing incenses a Christian so much as the idea that a guilty person might escape punishment. |
This is totally wrong. The Bible teaches that I deserve eternal punishment in hell for the sins I have committed. It gets worse, there is nothing I can do to pay for my crimes against God. So Christians should and most do have compassion for others that are sinners. We are all the same. I pray every day for people to escape punishment and not get what they deserve. Because I do not want to get what I deserve as well.
| In this, I'm reminded of my grandmother. It was simply inconceivable to her that evil actions could go unpunished. For her, the universe itself could not tolerate injustice. Of course evil men would be made to suffer a thousand times what they had inflicted on others. It could not be otherwise, no more than objects could fall up instead of down. The possibility that a man like Hitler could cause such immense suffering, yet end his own with a quick gunshot to the temple was a horror too terrible to acknowledge. No, surely there was a Hell, and surely he was in it. That's what I think most atheists don't truly comprehend. The concept of Hell is a comfort for most Christians. |
No. becasue if Hitler, Stallin, Dahmer etc.. cannot get into heaven then I cannot either. I want nobody to go to hell including Hitler. The concept of hell is in no way comforting to Christians as a whole.
| Shirking responsibility has a peculiar way of pushing their buttons. Abortion isn't bothersome because it ends an innocent life, although that's the rhetoric used. It's unacceptable because it allows a woman to avoid the consequences of her actions. |
Wrong again. Most Christians believe it is wrong because it is killing a human life that god created. Most Christians are for adoption and many adopt children of mothers that cannot support their children. It has nothing to do with punishing the mother for her actions.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:08:32 [Permalink]
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To the best of my knowledge, all of the major religions, past as well as present, have some sort of an afterlife. I think that it is that we have difficulty concieving of an existence that does not include the unique & irreplacable Me. Thus, religion gives the believer hope; albeit an arguably false hope.
I find the Bible quite an interesting bit of literature, although it's been some years since I've read it. While it is not an authorative work of history, it gives something of an insight into the periods it covers.
And some of the stories are very good. I've always enjoyed the Noachian Flood yarn as well as the Garden of Eden/Creation myth.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:52:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
The Bible clearly teaches that no person is without sin even Christians. It also teaches how we can know we are saved so we do not need to worry about eternal punishment. |
Robb, it also teaches that good works are required as evidence for that salvation. Salvation requires more than simple lip-service, it requires living as though one is saved. And of course, as Christians are quick to remind, only God truly knows who will be saved and who will not. Mortals cannot know the mind of God. To say that you "know" you are saved is a hubris beyond measure. You hope that you are saved, but you can never know. You may only prostrate yourself before the Almighty and await his judgment.
So Christians, if they truly feared for the eternal preservation of their souls, should be scared shitless of Hell. It should be an ever-present worry, a factor in every decision they make. Nothing could ever pose a graver threat than the existence of hell. Yet curiously you almost never see a Christian worried about going to hell themselves. If they express any concern at all, it is always for the souls of others. Every Christian who literally believed that this life was an insignificant trial with eternal consequences should be living like an ascetic saint. In this case, actions speak much louder than words.
| This is totally wrong. The Bible teaches that I deserve eternal punishment in hell for the sins I have committed. It gets worse, there is nothing I can do to pay for my crimes against God. So Christians should and most do have compassion for others that are sinners. We are all the same. I pray every day for people to escape punishment and not get what they deserve. Because I do not want to get what I deserve as well. |
Prayers, being merely words, are cheap.
| No. becasue if Hitler, Stallin, Dahmer etc.. cannot get into heaven then I cannot either. I want nobody to go to hell including Hitler. The concept of hell is in no way comforting to Christians as a whole. |
Robb, the concept of Hell is wholly inconsistent with the concept of a omni-benevolent God. When megachurch pastor Carlton Pearson began preaching the conclusion that since Christ died for the world's sins, nobody goes to hell, he began to lose parishioners in droves. Eventually he lost 90% of his flock. Christians could not tolerate the idea of a loving god who does not punish their enemies. They needed a judgmental god. A wrathful god. A god who would mete out justice as they deemed necessary.
You may not think of Hell as a comfort, but it is intrinsic to your world view. I doubt, like those others, you could abide the idea of losing Hell. Despite all the talk of love, Christians need Hell. They need to hate, self-hate being first and foremost. So for those Christians, Hell is a comfort in the same way the whip is a comfort to the masochist.
| Wrong again. Most Christians believe it is wrong because it is killing a human life that god created. Most Christians are for adoption and many adopt children of mothers that cannot support their children. It has nothing to do with punishing the mother for her actions. |
Ok, then, Robb, set me straight. Studies have shown that 25% of pregnancies end in natural miscarriages by the sixth week! That's one in four. From a Christian perspective, that's a staggering loss of innocent life, far, far, worse than the number of women who receive abortions. Could you point me to any Christian organizations working to either limit or end these natural miscarriages? Can you point me to any Christian charities working to cure this epidemic loss of life? How do their numbers compare to anti-abortion institutions? Is it in proportion to the number of lives which could potentially be saved?
Once again, Robb, I realize you think you know your own reasons for believing things, but in my experience, Christians are almost never aware of their own subconscious motives. You remember Socrates admonition to "know thyself?" Christians almost always fail miserably in that regard. For instance, most Christians believe they get their morals from the bible, yet it can be shown they decidedly do not. Christians are strangers to themselves. I suspect much of that is due to their insistence on attributing personal impulses to divine guidance. When someone's mind is already that fractured, projection and transference become standard operating procedures.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/12/2007 11:42:43 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 11:04:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Wrong again. Most Christians believe it is wrong because it is killing a human life that god created. Most Christians are for adoption and many adopt children of mothers that cannot support their children. It has nothing to do with punishing the mother for her actions. |
Ok, then, Robb, set me straight. Studies have shown that 25% of pregnancies end in natural miscarriages by the sixth week! That's one in four. From a Christian perspective, that's a staggering loss of innocent life, far, far, worse than the number of women who receive abortions. Could you point me to any Christian organizations working to either limit or end these natural miscarriages? Can you point me to any Christian charities working to cure this epidemic loss of life? How do their numbers compare to anti-abortion institutions? Is it in proportion to the number of lives which could potentially be saved?
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Along this same line of thought, admittedly without looking at any evidence, its a reasonable guess that miscarriages happen more often with poeple who don't have easy access to prenatal health care. These would be the working poor and the illegal aliens. Are Christians pushing policy for universal health care for both citizens and non-citizens?
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. More broadly I find it inconceivable that these same people will announce to the world that the US is a "Christian Nation" and yet they guard their cash so jealously they'll vote to kill any plan to provide 45 million people access to preventative health care. Which gospel says 'guard thy wealth jealously?' |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/12/2007 11:34:10 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 11:13:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. |
Good point. But not so odd if my observations are correct, however it must certainly be puzzling to Robb. I wonder how he'll explain this disparity.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:08:53 [Permalink]
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With some inane rationalization, if I had to guess.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:24:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Robb, it also teaches that good works are required as evidence for that salvation. Salvation requires more than simple lip-service, it requires living as though one is saved. |
Good works are evidence you are saved. They are not of your own doing, but God does good works through you. You do not on your own power live as you are saved, there is evidence you are saved because you are saved.
| And of course, as Christians are quick to remind, only God truly knows who will be saved and who will not. |
Not so. reah 1 John, this is how you can know you are saved.
| Mortals cannot know the mind of God. To say that you "know" you are saved is a hubris beyond measure. You hope that you are saved, but you can never know. You may only prostrate yourself before the Almighty and await his judgment. |
read 1 John.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13 NIV)
| So Christians, if they truly feared for the eternal preservation of their souls, should be scared shitless of Hell. It should be an ever-present worry, a factor in every decision they make. Nothing could ever pose a graver threat than the existence of hell. |
If you are a saved person hell has no power over you. If you know you are saved hell scares you because others are going there not becasue you are.
| Yet curiously you almost never see a Christian worried about going to hell themselves. If they express any concern at all, it is always for the souls of others. Every Christian who literally believed that this life was an insignificant trial with eternal consequences should be living like an ascetic saint. In this case, actions speak much louder than words. |
Works do not get you into heaven. The Bible teaches that Christians sin and if we claim to be without sin we make Jesus a liar and we are not saved.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.(1 John 8-10 NIV)
| Prayers, being merely words, are cheap. |
Not cheap at all. But I agree that God wants us to evangelize, help widows and children etc. as well as pray.
| Robb, the concept of Hell is wholly inconsistent with the concept of a omni-benevolent God. When megachurch pastor Carlton Pearson began preaching the conclusion that since Christ died for the world's sins, nobody goes to hell, he began to lose parishioners in droves. Eventually he lost 90% of his flock. Christians could not tolerate the idea of a loving god who does not punish their enemies. They needed a judgmental god. A wrathful god. A god who would mete out justice as they deemed necessary. |
No, they left because that concept is not taught in the Bible. What is taught in the Bible is that God is righteous as well as all loving. Everybody has sinned against God and all of His wrath is upon us becasue of our choices to sin. We deserve to burn in hell forever. God cannot be all righteous if he does not punish sin. So in His love for us He crushed His son and was glad to do it so you and I can live with Him forever in heaven.
| You may not think of Hell as a comfort, but it is intrinsic to your world view. I doubt, like those others, you could abide the idea of losing Hell. Despite all the talk of love, Christians need Hell. They need to hate, self-hate being first and foremost. So for those Christians, Hell is a comfort in the same way the whip is a comfort to the masochist. |
The only reason I and most Christians beleive in hell is becasue it is clearly taught in the Bible.
| Once again, Robb, I realize you think you know your own reasons for believing things, but in my experience, Christians are almost never aware of their own subconscious motives. You remember Socrates admonition to "know thyself?" Christians almost always fail miserably in that regard. For instance, many Christians believe they get their morals from the bible, yet it can be shown they decidedly do not. Christians are strangers to themselves. I suspect much of that is due to their insistence on attributing personal impulses to divine guidance. When someone's mind is already that fractured, projection and transference become standard operating procedures. |
So you know better than me what I believe? Your assessment of American Christianity is probably pretty accurate, but I am talking about what the Bible teaches not what Christians in the US practice or believe. Have you ever been to a foreign country and met Christians there?
The Bible does command us to examine ourselves to see that we are saved. The fact that many Christians do not do this does not mean that the Bible teaches Christians not to know themselves. It is an induication that many Christians do not realy believe the Bible is Gods word.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:27:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Wrong again. Most Christians believe it is wrong because it is killing a human life that god created. Most Christians are for adoption and many adopt children of mothers that cannot support their children. It has nothing to do with punishing the mother for her actions. |
Ok, then, Robb, set me straight. Studies have shown that 25% of pregnancies end in natural miscarriages by the sixth week! That's one in four. From a Christian perspective, that's a staggering loss of innocent life, far, far, worse than the number of women who receive abortions. Could you point me to any Christian organizations working to either limit or end these natural miscarriages? Can you point me to any Christian charities working to cure this epidemic loss of life? How do their numbers compare to anti-abortion institutions? Is it in proportion to the number of lives which could potentially be saved?
|
Along this same line of thought, admittedly without looking at any evidence, its a reasonable guess that miscarriages happen more often with poeple who don't have easy access to prenatal health care. These would be the working poor and the illegal aliens. Are Christians pushing policy for universal health care for both citizens and non-citizens?
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. More broadly I find it inconceivable that these same people will announce to the world that the US is a "Christian Nation" and yet they guard their cash so jealously they'll vote to kill any plan to provide 45 million people access to preventative health care. Which gospel says 'guard thy wealth jealously?'
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Do not judge Christianity by Christians (especially American Christians) but by God's word. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:29:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by chaloobi
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. |
Good point. But not so odd if my observations are correct, however it must certainly be puzzling to Robb. I wonder how he'll explain this disparity.
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How do you think Christians should help prevent miscarriages? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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The Bible
