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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:48:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Do not judge Christianity by Christians (especially American Christians) but by God's word.
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The issue I have with god's word, as portrayed in the bible, is entirely separate from the issue I have with those who claim to be living by it but don't; who use it as a means to collect and exercise political power and to engineer society for their personal gain.
Regarding the bible itself, I don't believe any of it is God's word. This is not to say it's all bad, as there's some nice stuff in there, plus some pretty freaky stories, but it's not inspired by any deity. Furthermore, if there is a deity, a creator, or whatever, I don't believe it has revealed itself to humanity.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that if a god exists, it has a hands-off (or at the very least a wholly secretive) policy toward humanity. The more I see revealed about the universe via science, the more convinced I become that humanity's place in it is akin to a grain of sand on a very large beach. If the universe is some great purposeful project of some unimaginable entity or group of entities, then we are incidental, perhaps accidental, to the project's true purpose. And likely our little minds could only begin to understand what Everything is really all about.
But the idea Everything is encapsulated in the Bible, so obviously the myths of an ignorant and backward tribe of wandering herdsmen, is absurd. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 12:50:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by chaloobi
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. |
Good point. But not so odd if my observations are correct, however it must certainly be puzzling to Robb. I wonder how he'll explain this disparity.
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How do you think Christians should help prevent miscarriages?
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They could start by supporting a policy to provide universal preventative health care for every human being living in the US. To anyone who wants to be a true Christian, this should be a no brainer, as basic as 1+1=2. |
-Chaloobi
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 13:20:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by chaloobi
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. |
Good point. But not so odd if my observations are correct, however it must certainly be puzzling to Robb. I wonder how he'll explain this disparity.
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How do you think Christians should help prevent miscarriages?
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They could start by supporting a policy to provide universal preventative health care for every human being living in the US. To anyone who wants to be a true Christian, this should be a no brainer, as basic as 1+1=2.
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I am not totally against universal health care but the Bible teaches that Christians should help others and not let a government do it for them. We as Christians should help others get proper health care and not leave it up to someone else. Did Jesus ever trust a government to do the good works that God has prepared for Christians to do? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 13:28:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Good works are evidence you are saved. They are not of your own doing, but God does good works through you. You do not on your own power live as you are saved, there is evidence you are saved because you are saved. |
Then using this standard of evidence, virtually no Christians are saved. Is that what you're suggesting, Robb?
| And of course, as Christians are quick to remind, only God truly knows who will be saved and who will not. |
Not so. reah 1 John, this is how you can know you are saved. |
Except you just got done telling me that I can tell who is saved by the good works they exhibit, meaning there are huge numbers of Christians who believe they are saved that must be wrong. Honestly, Robb, can't you see the glaring contradiction? Look at the situation realistically instead of mindlessly quoting a bible verse.
| If you are a saved person hell has no power over you. If you know you are saved hell scares you because others are going there not becasue you are. |
If you were a saved person, then your actions (by god working through you) would not be sinful, and thus you would not merit hell. However, most Christians I see fail to exhibit god's grace and fail to fear Hell, making the rationale you provide inadequate to explain the observed behavior.
| Works do not get you into heaven. The Bible teaches that Christians sin and if we claim to be without sin we make Jesus a liar and we are not saved. |
Not without sin, Robb, but presumably with considerably less sin than the average unbeliever, otherwise all that talk of salvation being evident through good works and "knowing a tree by its fruit" becomes false rhetoric, and you make the bible out to be untrustworthy again.
| No, they left because that concept is not taught in the Bible. |
Really? It isn't in the bible that Jesus came to die for mankind's sins?
| What is taught in the Bible is that God is righteous as well as all loving. Everybody has sinned against God and all of His wrath is upon us becasue of our choices to sin. We deserve to burn in hell forever. God cannot be all righteous if he does not punish sin. So in His love for us He crushed His son and was glad to do it so you and I can live with Him forever in heaven. |
Which is exactly how Pearson reasoned. How could anyone undo Christ's sacrifice? If Jesus died for them, how could they still go to hell? You would have to be more powerful than Christ.
| The only reason I and most Christians beleive in hell is becasue it is clearly taught in the Bible. |
No, robb, lots of things are in the bible that modern Christians no longer believe. The bible really does speak of a round, flat Earth, and no one takes that seriously anymore. Most intelligent Christians reject the notion of literal six day creation. Slavery isn't tolerated, women are not executed for the crime of being raped, and cripples and menstruating women aren't banned from churches. So for the concept of hell to have stuck around so long, much more must be at work than simply its inclusion in the bible. Hell must fulfill some psychological need in Christians.
| So you know better than me what I believe? |
Not what, but why, and not necessarily you personally. Of course my observations can only be generally true. I'm looking at overall patterns.
Your assessment of American Christianity is probably pretty accurate, but I am talking about what the Bible teaches not what Christians in the US practice or believe. Have you ever been to a foreign country and met Christians there?
The Bible does command us to examine ourselves to see that we are saved. The fact that many Christians do not do this does not mean that the Bible teaches Christians not to know themselves. It is an induication that many Christians do not realy believe the Bible is Gods word. |
But that's exactly my point, robb! Christians say one thing but do another. I'm trying to figure out why that is. You can either believe that most Christians are so evil and duplicitous that they are conscious hypocrites, or you can explore what unconscious mechanisms may be at work to explain the disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act in practice.
| How do you think Christians should help prevent miscarriages? |
Uh, the same way people prevent any affliction, robb. Study its causes and come up with measures to prevent it. We have foundations working on cancer, why not miscarriages? Why aren't they even trying, robb? Do you have an answer?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/12/2007 13:31:47 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 13:47:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by chaloobi
Odd that the more fundamentalist Christians, through their political action and voting, are more concerned about making women who don't want a child have a child than about helping women who do want a child avoid miscarriage. |
Good point. But not so odd if my observations are correct, however it must certainly be puzzling to Robb. I wonder how he'll explain this disparity.
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How do you think Christians should help prevent miscarriages?
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They could start by supporting a policy to provide universal preventative health care for every human being living in the US. To anyone who wants to be a true Christian, this should be a no brainer, as basic as 1+1=2.
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I am not totally against universal health care but the Bible teaches that Christians should help others and not let a government do it for them. We as Christians should help others get proper health care and not leave it up to someone else. Did Jesus ever trust a government to do the good works that God has prepared for Christians to do?
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Not totally against it? How can you be against it at all??? Jesus didn't live under a government for the people by the people. In America, Christians determine what the government does and by refusing to accept any form of universal health care policy are directly responsible for denying health care to millions. And in any case, there has to be a means to administrate the individual help from one American to another. The wealth surely exists in the country for all to be cared for, it's merely a question of how to administrate it. Use the government, use private insurance, use a church - it makes no difference. But the fact remains that the US, the world's wealthiest nation, a self-proclaimed Christian nation, is the only modern nation that hasn't done it. And it's completely indefensible. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/12/2007 13:48:50 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 13:54:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
But the idea Everything is encapsulated in the Bible, so obviously the myths of an ignorant and backward tribe of wandering herdsmen, is absurd.
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The Bible does not have all there is to know. Probably it only has less that 0.000000001% of all hat can be known. But it has everything that we need to know about God for our salvation. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 14:35:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Then using this standard of evidence, virtually no Christians are saved. Is that what you're suggesting, Robb? |
You are probably right in saying that most American Christians are not saved. But I can only tell another Christian how to know they are saved. I can never know if they are saved by anything they do or say. That is between God and that person.
| Except you just got done telling me that I can tell who is saved by the good works they exhibit, meaning there are huge numbers of Christians who believe they are saved that must be wrong. Honestly, Robb, can't you see the glaring contradiction? Look at the situation realistically instead of mindlessly quoting a bible verse. |
I did not mean to indicate that good works equates to being saved. There are plenty of non Christians that do good works. I do mean that good works flow from being saved. This is for each person to decide if their good works are from their own merit or from God.
| If you were a saved person, then your actions (by god working through you) would not be sinful, and thus you would not merit hell. However, most Christians I see fail to exhibit god's grace and fail to fear Hell, making the rationale you provide inadequate to explain the observed behavior. |
I already showed you scripture that is contrary to what you are saying here. Christians do sin.
| Not without sin, Robb, but presumably with considerably less sin than the average unbeliever, otherwise all that talk of salvation being evident through good works and "knowing a tree by its fruit" becomes false rhetoric, and you make the bible out to be untrustworthy again. |
The difference is Christians will want to repent and non Christians will not see anything wrong with their sin even if they call themselves Christians.
| No, they left because that concept is not taught in the Bible. |
Really? It isn't in the bible that Jesus came to die for mankind's sins? |
Yes this is taught in the Bible. He already died for our sins. But it is clear that we must repent and believe in Jesus to be saved. Otherwise His sacrifice will not be applied to you and you will go to hell for eternity. He still died for your sins but you will still go to hell.
| Which is exactly how Pearson reasoned. How could anyone undo Christ's sacrifice? If Jesus died for them, how could they still go to hell? You would have to be more powerful than Christ. |
Ther is no salvation without repentence. That is clearly taught in the Bible. I think this Bible verse applies to Pearsons reasoning:
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.(2 Tim 4:3-5 NIV)
| The only reason I and most Christians beleive in hell is becasue it is clearly taught in the Bible. |
No, robb, lots of things are in the bible that modern Christians no longer believe. The bible really does speak of a round, flat Earth, and no one takes that seriously anymore. Most intelligent Christians reject the notion of literal six day creation. Slavery isn't tolerated, women are not executed for the crime of being raped, and cripples and menstruating women aren't banned from churches. So for the concept of hell to have stuck around so long, much more must be at work than simply its inclusion in the bible. Hell must fulfill some psychological need in Christians. |
Then these people do not believe that the Bible is true.
| But that's exactly my point, robb! Christians say one thing but do another. I'm trying to figure out why that is. You can either believe that most Christians are so evil and duplicitous that they are conscious hypocrites, or you can explore what unconscious mechanisms may be at work to explain the disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act in practice. |
They have been taught that jesus will save you if you do this and this then you can do whatever you want and you will be saved. This is what American Christianity teaches and it is heresy.
| How do you think Christians should help prevent miscarriages? |
Uh, the same way people prevent any affliction, robb. Study its causes and come up with measures to prevent it. We have foundations working on cancer, why not miscarriages? Why aren't they even trying, robb? Do you have an answer? |
There are charities that are trying to find answers. I googled two of them. I think most people think they can affect a change in the abortion raet due to choice but they cannot do much to prevent natural abortions. The only thing I can do is to donate money to an organization that is trying to find the cause.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 14:56:16 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| I am not totally against universal health care but the Bible teaches that Christians should help others and not let a government do it for them. |
Well, good thing our government is "of the people, by the people, for the people".
The bible is completely silent on anything having to do with the type of government we now operate under Robb, since this form of self government didn't exist until ~1800 years after the new testament was ellegedly written.
Explain to me how a universal healthcare program, run by our government, is not the exact same thing as people helping other people out.
The absurdity of a biblical justification for being against universal healthcare is beyond comical.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 18:20:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Robb said:
| I am not totally against universal health care but the Bible teaches that Christians should help others and not let a government do it for them. |
Well, good thing our government is "of the people, by the people, for the people".
The bible is completely silent on anything having to do with the type of government we now operate under Robb, since this form of self government didn't exist until ~1800 years after the new testament was ellegedly written.
Explain to me how a universal healthcare program, run by our government, is not the exact same thing as people helping other people out.
The absurdity of a biblical justification for being against universal healthcare is beyond comical.
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I am not against universal health care, I am only worried how it will be accomplished. I only said that the Bible is clear that Jesus did not change things by government programs but by each person helping out one another. You inferred that I am against health care becasue the Bible says I should be. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 19:16:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I am not against universal health care, I am only worried how it will be accomplished. I only said that the Bible is clear that Jesus did not change things by government programs but by each person helping out one another. You inferred that I am against health care becasue the Bible says I should be. |
I think Dude's point here is that it would be impossible for Jesus to talk about "government programs" because that sort of government didn't exist ca. AD 26! Talking about "government health care" is like talking about "publicly traded companies" or "tenured professors"-- it's just not a concept that the Bible addresses or, for that matter, really can address in anything but a superficial way.
I've heard people try to argue that Jesus was a socialist, for instance, but it's simply too anachronistic. I guess one could argue that since Jesus was omniscient, he knew of the concept called "universal health care" or "NBA Draft Lottery" and so his word as written and preserved in the Gospels actually provide some clue as to how we should see such things through a Christian perspective. But I'd just as soon believe in a virgin birth... |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 19:35:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Robb
I am not against universal health care, I am only worried how it will be accomplished. I only said that the Bible is clear that Jesus did not change things by government programs but by each person helping out one another. You inferred that I am against health care becasue the Bible says I should be. |
I think Dude's point here is that it would be impossible for Jesus to talk about "government programs" because that sort of government didn't exist ca. AD 26! Talking about "government health care" is like talking about "publicly traded companies" or "tenured professors"-- it's just not a concept that the Bible addresses or, for that matter, really can address in anything but a superficial way.
I've heard people try to argue that Jesus was a socialist, for instance, but it's simply too anachronistic. I guess one could argue that since Jesus was omniscient, he knew of the concept called "universal health care" or "NBA Draft Lottery" and so his word as written and preserved in the Gospels actually provide some clue as to how we should see such things through a Christian perspective. But I'd just as soon believe in a virgin birth...
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I give money to our church, our church gives money to people that need health care and cannot afford it, mostly single women with children. I hope that a system of universal health care can work for everyone but I think this is how Jesus wanted us to take care of people, by getting involved and giving Gods resources He gave you to help people in need. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 19:50:58 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | I only said that the Bible is clear that Jesus did not change things by government programs but by each person helping out one another. |
and
| I give money to our church, our church gives money to people that need health care and cannot afford it, mostly single women with children. I hope that a system of universal health care can work for everyone but I think this is how Jesus wanted us to take care of people, by getting involved and giving Gods resources He gave you to help people in need. |
This made sense in a time when religion and government were intertwined, but America is a secular democracy, religiously diverse, huge and complex. When we the people push for universal healthcare that all of us who can pay do pay into through our tax dollars, we are helping others. The problem these days with relying purely on local community organizations such as churches is that they can never cover everyone or even come close. The only people who will be helped by your church is adherents to your religion. 20% of Americans identify as non-religious, and you can bet a good number of them are in need of health care that they can't afford. People shouldn't be coerced into belonging to a religious community that they don't agree with in order to get charity. In a pluralistic society, there needs to be a secular alternative for minorities who don't have a community which fits them, or who are part of a community that can't help them. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/12/2007 19:51:23 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 22:47:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I think Dude's point here is that it would be impossible for Jesus to talk about "government programs" because that sort of government didn't exist ca. AD 26! |
Except for the Aqueduct... |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2007 : 00:04:03 [Permalink]
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Public works have been a facet of most governments in human history.
My point was that government of a nation by the average citizen of that nation did not exist (well, maybe Athens) until ~230 years ago.
So the bible can't possibly comment on a government program in the modern world.
What Robb really wants, it seems, is for people to feel beholden to his church for their charity. A government program for healthcare would eliminate that, and the religious reich won't stand for that.
Dress it up in flowery words all you ant Robb, but that is the actual bottom line. If the church provides healthcare for those who can't afford it then they get the social benefits (reputation, new members, respect, etc). The church (in the general sense, including all those who engage in charity work) can't possibly provide healthcare for the 45million people in the US who don't have insurance, and THAT is how they want to keep it. If everyone had access, then the church wouldn't be able to play the good guy.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Halcyon Dayz
New Member
Netherlands
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2007 : 01:29:50 [Permalink]
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If there was 'universal' health care, they could use those funds on something else.
There are always people in need. |
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. -- Don Marquis
"The universe is a strange, practically incomprehensible place. But that is how things are, and no amount of wishing that things are really the way we perceive them will change that." - The Black Cat |
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The Bible
