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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 12/19/2007 : 19:22:41
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Recently Republican preidential candidate Mike Huckabee put out an TV spot in three states where He wishes everyone a "Merry Christmas", and even goes so far as to remind everyone that the Christmas season is about Christ.
There has been an uproar in the media about this overt display of religion. Now as you would all know, I am a christian. That being said, I sincerely am not someone who finds it useful to go around yelling about the secularization of Christmas. If nothing else I find that it takes away from my enjoyment of Christmas if I stress about it. But I cannot for the life of me figure out why this would offend anyone. I am fully in favor of the seperation of church and state, at least in the sense that there should be nothing like a theocracy. But as far as politicians personal lives go, the seperation of church and state is a myth. Everybody's decisions are shaped by their religious view points, or lack thereof.
I also have never understood what is offensive about saying "Merry Christmas". I would still disagree if all things were equal but they are not. Chanukah is nowhere near the most important Jewish holiday. Kwaanza is not a religious holiday. I am perfectly fine if you do not celebrate Christmas, but the idea of being offended by having someone wish you a merry Christmas is not even logical. Political Correctness has clearly gone too far when you can not tell someone to have a good Christmas.
Am I missing something? Please fill me in.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 19:28:13 [Permalink]
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| Who is offended by someone being wished "merry christmas?" |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 19:58:07 [Permalink]
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Just to further my point...
A Fox poll showed that 96% of people celebrate Christmas. 5% celebrate Chanukah. 2% celebrate Kwaanza.
To put that in context, Gallup polls showed that 8% of people think that polygamy should be legal. 9% of people think that the holocaust (defined as "millions of Jews being killed by Nazi's) never happened. I don't see us altering our language to not offend these miorities.... |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 20:04:40 [Permalink]
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| Who is altering the language? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 21:07:42 [Permalink]
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Saying "Happy Holidays" is a way of saying "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Chanukah" and "Happy Kwanzaa." It's simply meant to be inclusive. The only people who have ever "taken offense" at how they were greeted have been Christians. They don't like to be inclusive. They think this time of year should be all about them, them, them. It is Christians who think a "war" is being waged on Christmas if it isn't selectively preferred and mentioned over and above all other ethnic and religious traditions.
Some other people find this zealous self-centeredness highly obnoxious.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 21:56:26 [Permalink]
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I am not offended when people tell me "Merry Christmas" because Christmas has been watered down and secularized to much of an extend in the general public. The Fox poll noted by BHG88 says 96% celebrate Christmas. But we know that only about 80% of people are Christian, and most of them are not practicing their Christianity very religiously. This is because plenty of people celebrate X-mas : "Christmas" in name, but just a generic, cultural verson, not a spiritually significant celebration of Jesus Christ. And why has this happened? Gee, maybe it is because all the Christmas crap is completely unavoidable in mainstream culture. Even I can't avoid "celebrating" Christmas because of work (gifts from kids, Christmas caroling from kids, etc.), family, and friends, and I'm a die-hard atheist.
So happy holidays, everyone, and merry Krismas. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 22:07:48 [Permalink]
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Here's the ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMUI2XExdIA
BHG88 wrote: | But I cannot for the life of me figure out why this would offend anyone. |
In the ad he's explicitly only addressing Christians. Apparently he only means to speak to Christians in that ad. It isn't about just his beliefs, it is very much about the viewer's beliefs as well. Also, it is total bullshit that this is just some kind of innocent television Christmas card. It costs a lot of money to air those ads, and that money comes right from his political campaign. It is a political ad, however covert. So to answer your question clearly, it is a political ad, from a guy who wants to be president of the entire USA, which explicitly addresses 80% and ignores 20% of Americans. Rather shitty thing to do. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/19/2007 22:08:07 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 23:37:16 [Permalink]
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I don't see us altering our language to not offend these miorities....
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Okay. This is just an extension of the "politically correct" movement. That is, someone came up with the idea of criticizing people for attempting to be polite, and inclusive.
You see, it's not so much about people altering their language so as not to offend, but to be friendly and respectful. Some people like to be friendly and want to respect other people, so they try to see the world from other viewpoints. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2007 : 02:37:40 [Permalink]
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This is just more verbal crap from the so-called "War on Christmas' brought on by a very few Christians and amplified by the more idotic wing of the national media. That was only a couple of years ago, and now, apparently, that same covy of cretins is trying to revive it. Nobody cared then; nobody cares now.
As far as I'm concerned, Huckabee can put forth any greeting that won't get his face punched.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 05:55:45 [Permalink]
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By making an exclusively "Christian" appeal, Huckabee makes it clear that he gives not a fig for the other 20% of the American population. Anyone in the excluded 20% would be crazy to support him, because he's pretty much told them he won't represent their interests. In fact, Huckabee is not-so-subtly signaling to the Christian Right that he is exclusively their boy, and won't be caterin' to no Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists, or atheists.
He's also making it clear that he is so far outside the inclusive secular traditions of the US that we should fear he'd be a fascist President.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 09:16:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
This is just more verbal crap from the so-called "War on Christmas' brought on by a very few Christians and amplified by the more idotic wing of the national media. That was only a couple of years ago, and now, apparently, that same covy of cretins is trying to revive it. Nobody cared then; nobody cares now.
As far as I'm concerned, Huckabee can put forth any greeting that won't get his face punched.
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Exactly right. I can not remember a time when "seasons greetings" or "happy holidays" were not used by some stores and well wishers. "The War on Christmas" was completely fabricated by the likes of Fox news, and a few right wing pundits like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly. Both need controversy to have something to talk about. And if there isn't one going on, they simply make one up. It's all bullshit. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 10:10:00 [Permalink]
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Apparently this ad worries some other conservatives: | ...Ron Paul bashed Mike Huckabee's new Christmas TV spot airing in Iowa and New Hampshire. The Huckabee spot “reminds me of what Sinclair Lewis once said. He says, ‘When fascism comes to this country, it will be wrapped in the flag carrying a cross.' |
http://thirdpartywatch.com/2007/12/19/ron-paul-calls-huckabee-christmas-ad-fascist/
I don't regard this ad from Huckabee as problematic because it is rude or offensive. I find it worrisome because with it he makes clear that he would be a president to especially serve Christians. Again, it is not some harmless Christmas card in televised form. He spent campaign money on it, and therefore it must be seen for what it is - a political ad. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 10:16:12 [Permalink]
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Huckabee's defense: | Huckabee said Tuesday that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his unscripted commercial because, considering the meaning of the holiday, "I don't know what else to say about Christmas." |
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5389403.html
Wow, could he possibly be that ignorant of the non-Christian celebrations that now go on all over America this time of year? He didn't have to eliminate the silent night, the cross, or the mention of celebrating Jesus's birth. All he had to do was tack on something like: "And for those Americans who don't celebrate Christmas, happy holidays." Then he could have made his own Christianity clear while addressing and kindly regarding all Americans. And why didn't he do that? Because the phrase "happy holidays", used to include non-Christians, is now practically sacrilege among certain conservative Christians. Didn't know what else to say my ass! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/20/2007 10:17:13 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 14:49:49 [Permalink]
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The reason the add is offensive to many is this simple fact: It is a political ad that invokes one specific religion.
Contrary to the historical revisionists, the USA is not (and never has been) a "christian" nation. Our constitution is so specifically secular that you'd have to be a complete moron (or a lying powerhungry religious zealot) to think it was somehow written with christianity in mind.
A better question to ask would be, "Why are some alleged christians offended by "happy hollidays"?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Huckabee Christmas Ad
