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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2008 : 12:22:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
How can a brain made from matter and random occurrences in nature comprehend abstract ideas such as two? I think that this is evidence for a God. |
Really? How? By what mechanism does god allow brains made from matter to comprehend an abstract idea such as two? What, precisely, is the interaction between our material minds and the incorporeal deity you're positing? How does what you are suggesting work, exactly?
Because you need to provide positive evidence for what you are asserting here, Robb. Just saying "I can't figure it out, therefore magic man exists" is not compelling in the slightest. It isn't evidence for god by any reasonable standard. It's a straight up argument from incredulity. Classic god-of-the-gaps stuff. Totally shoddy thinking, and totally non-persuasive.
If you think this is evidence for god, then you are admitting to being wrong and confused, because it isn't. It's that simple.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/08/2008 12:25:13 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 13:10:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dave W.
[quote]Originally posted by Robb
What is your basis for considering suffering a bad thing. |
I have suffered. It sucks. |
Why do you think that your opinion of suffering should apply to others?
If suffering isn't a bad thing, then what's the big deal about Jesus suffering for your sins? Why don't you just take your suffering, which you claim you deserve, in hell yourself? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 13:45:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
If suffering isn't a bad thing, then what's the big deal about Jesus suffering for your sins? Why don't you just take your suffering, which you claim you deserve, in hell yourself?
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That's not the question. I believe suffering such as poverty, rape, starvation is bad and I base this on the Bible. What do you base your assertion that suffering is bad? How can you label anything as bad or good if everything is here by natural occurances? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 13:59:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Because you need to provide positive evidence for what you are asserting here, Robb. Just saying "I can't figure it out, therefore magic man exists" is not compelling in the slightest. It isn't evidence for god by any reasonable standard. It's a straight up argument from incredulity. Classic god-of-the-gaps stuff. Totally shoddy thinking, and totally non-persuasive. |
I do not claim to be a skeptic. However, thanks for the education. I think it is evidence but certainly does not prove anything. I do not believe the god in the gaps stuff. God is in everything not just the gaps. Does anybody have an explaination of why I beleive in a God from a non theist world view.
| If you think this is evidence for god, then you are admitting to being wrong and confused, because it isn't. It's that simple. |
I understand.
On a seperate question, Is there any idea's on how people developed a belief in God? I am interested in how abstract concepts can come from atoms, chemicals, electrons etc. put together by radom occurances.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 14:26:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I think it is evidence but certainly does not prove anything. |
No, it doesn't not even rise to the level of evidence. Ignorance is not evidence. That's why I say you are confused on this point.
| I do not believe the god in the gaps stuff. God is in everything not just the gaps. |
I understand that you feel you god doesn't operate only in gaps, but you misunderstand what is meant by that term. The "god of the gaps" refers to a line of argumentation that points to "gaps" in our understanding of things (areas of ignorance), and then asserts that belief in god somehow fills that gap. "We can't explain X, therefore magic man." In other words, it is precisely what you did above. You are trying to use the lack of an explanation as evidence for your god, but that's bad reasoning, since gaps in themselves can't be evidence for any alternative supernatural hypotheses. The reason for this becomes apparent whenever a natural explanation is found and a gap is filled, revealing any supernatural speculations to be utterly unfounded, as has been historically the case.
| Does anybody have an explaination of why I beleive in a God from a non theist world view. |
Yes. There are many plausible explanations about why the human brain is prone to magical thinking, including precursors to religion like animism. Understanding why people make the metal errors that they do goes a long way to explanating the phenomenon of religion. Perhaps other can recommend some good websites or books on this subject.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/08/2008 14:40:14 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 15:28:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
If suffering isn't a bad thing, then what's the big deal about Jesus suffering for your sins? Why don't you just take your suffering, which you claim you deserve, in hell yourself?
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That's not the question. I believe suffering such as poverty, rape, starvation is bad and I base this on the Bible. What do you base your assertion that suffering is bad? How can you label anything as bad or good if everything is here by natural occurances?
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I can label something good or bad based on how it affects people, animals, the planet, etc. Of course, few things are easily categorized in such black and white terms. Most things fall somewhere on a continuum between absolutely bad and absolutely good, and often contain various elements of both relatively good and relatively bad. It's much more complicated than, say, the bible. It requires thought and compassion.
However, how things got here is not germane to the question of whether something is good or bad. It stands on it's own merits, regardless of how the universe was formed. The fact that all evidence points to the current state of the universe as a result of natural occurrences has nothing to do with what's good and what's bad.
Human minds are capable of figuring out good and bad. We have evolved that way because we evolved as a social animal. We figured out what's good for the group, and, usually, we do it, and for the most part avoid behaviors that are harmful to the group. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority of the human race is capable of figuring it out and acting accordingly.
How can you say anything is good or bad based on the bible? It's full of examples of god condoning, or even ordering, the most atrocious behavior.
You also claim that "We do sin in the mothers womb all by ourselves", and for that we are deserving of eternal unimaginable suffering. That primitive, barbaric worldview pretty much defines the "bad" end of the continuum on my scale. How, by any stretch of the imagination, can you consider that to be the design of a good deity?
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 16:22:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
| Really, why wouldn't such ideas arise if mind is nothing but a property of wholly natural chemical reactions? Whence philosophy in general? How can people comprehend atheism if gray matter is all there is? The alternative is that this conversation cannot take place, Robb, because language itself is an abstract idea. |
I agree. We can have this conversation because our brains have a “mind” that we cannot figure out how it works. If only natural processes created our brains then how do we have a mind. |
Mind is an emergent property of the brain matter and it's electric and chemical interaction. This is easy to test: remove and/or disable parts of brain and you can clearly test how "mind" is affected. Easy empirical testing.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 16:33:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I believe suffering such as poverty, rape, starvation is bad and I base this on the Bible. |
You need a Bible to believe that shit is bad?
For Christ's sake, I have empathy for people who suffer these things. Empathy is all I need to determine it's bad. I had such empathy long before I understood, or read, or had the Bible read to me.
If Christians needs instruction manuals (the Bible) to realise that rape and starvation is bad, how fucked up they must be as human beings.
| What do you base your assertion that suffering is bad? How can you label anything as bad or good if everything is here by natural occurances? |
I label stuff as good or bad as per the Golden Rule. Even though I understand that natural occurances by themselves are not inherently good or evil. It's the consequences, and what we make of it that is.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2008 : 12:12:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
I can label something good or bad based on how it affects people, animals, the planet, etc. Of course, few things are easily categorized in such black and white terms. Most things fall somewhere on a continuum between absolutely bad and absolutely good, and often contain various elements of both relatively good and relatively bad. It's much more complicated than, say, the bible. It requires thought and compassion. |
I agree that most things are neither all good or all bad as people define good or bad.
| Human minds are capable of figuring out good and bad. We have evolved that way because we evolved as a social animal. We figured out what's good for the group, and, usually, we do it, and for the most part avoid behaviors that are harmful to the group. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority of the human race is capable of figuring it out and acting accordingly. |
Your answer of we just know what is good or bad does not answer the question.[/quote] |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2008 : 12:25:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You need a Bible to believe that shit is bad?
For Christ's sake, I have empathy for people who suffer these things. Empathy is all I need to determine it's bad. I had such empathy long before I understood, or read, or had the Bible read to me. |
I do not need the bible to tell me that these things are bad. I need the bible to be able to say that you should consider these things bad.
| If Christians needs instruction manuals (the Bible) to realise that rape and starvation is bad, how fucked up they must be as human beings. |
I never have said that I would think these are good if I did not believe in God. You have nothing to base your belief what is good or bad except for your own personal beliefs. Why should I consider rape bad just because you told me it is? If there is no intelligent force guiding the universe then there is nothing that is good or bad except in each individuals brain.
| I label stuff as good or bad as per the Golden Rule. Even though I understand that natural occurances by themselves are not inherently good or evil. It's the consequences, and what we make of it that is. |
Thats good for you but does not answer the question of why you consider things good or bad except for your own personal beliefs. Why do you think that you can tell me I am wrong if I believe rape is good? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2008 : 12:59:17 [Permalink]
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Robb, you should read this book: Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong.
Understanding that our morality isn't an absolute does not mean that anything goes. Evolution has ingrained certain moral principals into us. We all possess a moral grammar, if you like. The authors of the bible possessed this sense of morality, only they attributed it to the wrong source (god). Keep in mind, the bible was just one group of ancient man's attempt to explain their world. But like most things they speculated on, they got the source of our morality wrong. In fact, our morality is innate to us because we evolved as a social species. Out primate cousins exhibit an extremely similar sense of fairness and justice, underscoring the point that humans are not special in this regard. Like intelligence, the only difference is in degree.
So in fact, you don't need the bible to be able to say that other people should consider certain things bad, like killing or stealing or hurting other people, since the vast majority of people already know it. Excluding the mentally ill, we all possess a natural aversion to causing suffering in others. And when people transgress, perhaps under the influence of drugs or emotional distress, we have laws in place to punish the offenders.
Now, it is true that beyond these core values, many cultures consider breaking certain taboos immoral that other cultures will not find objectionable. In some Muslim countries, a woman who shows her hair in public might receive the death penalty. For us in the west, that seems harsh and barbaric, but no more so than the bible's instruction to stone rape victims and bar cripples from attending church. See, despite your desire to adhere to divinely-inspired, unchanging moral principals, we must acknowledge the reality that some human morals do evolve over time, including the morality included within the bible itself. However, historically it has evolved for the better. Life has greater value to modern cultures than it did in biblical times. If you don't think so, just ask yourself when the last time a criminal was publicly crucified.
So, although our morality is not absolute, there is no reason to insist that it needs to be. We are hardwired to view certain acts of trespass or violence as offensive and meriting punishment. That is in our nature, just like the capacity for language is innate, and you need not fret that it will suddenly vanish without the bible. And really, if you think about it, Robb, it makes sense that human morality would have its origin in humans, in us, than in some external cause.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2008 : 18:09:28 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| Why should I consider rape bad just because you told me it is? |
You shouldn't.
Do you realize that you have just made the best case possible against your own justification (biblical authority) for morality?
Pretty funny.
If there is no intelligent force guiding the universe then there is nothing that is good or bad except in each individuals brain.
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Absolutely correct. I'd cheer for you except you say it to dismiss it instead of accepting it for the fact it is.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 07:36:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I do not need the bible to tell me that these things are bad. I need the bible to be able to say that you should consider these things bad. |
Only in a world populated only by sociopaths who are afraid of Hell. If the sociopath has no fear of Hell, then the Bible won't sway him. And if he's not a sociopath, then a person doesn't need the Bible to understand that these things are bad. Thus, your need of the Bible to convince others that rape and murder are bad is premised upon the belief that all people (other than yourself, of course) lack empathy and can be threatened into behaving well.| You have nothing to base your belief what is good or bad except for your own personal beliefs. |
Neither do you.| Why should I consider rape bad just because you told me it is? |
As Dude noted, you shouldn't.| If there is no intelligent force guiding the universe then there is nothing that is good or bad except in each individuals brain. |
Again: this is based on the idea that the world is full of sociopaths.| Why do you think that you can tell me I am wrong if I believe rape is good? |
I, for one, am willing to entertain this idea for discussion. Robb, why don't you go ahead and present a case for rape being good? We can then compare its benefits against its detrimental effects and come to a rational and perhaps objective conclusion about whether it is good or bad, without using the Bible. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 12:16:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Again: this is based on the idea that the world is full of sociopaths.| Why do you think that you can tell me I am wrong if I believe rape is good? |
I, for one, am willing to entertain this idea for discussion. Robb, why don't you go ahead and present a case for rape being good? We can then compare its benefits against its detrimental effects and come to a rational and perhaps objective conclusion about whether it is good or bad, without using the Bible.
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Touché, Dave.
While entertaining the idea:
My sollution would have been to beat his brains out with a baseball bat and then telling him to stay as far away as humanly possible from my daughters, my whife, and other females I know. 
I wouldn't trust a Bible-thumper to be swayed by a rational argument. 
Edited to add:
I don't have kids, nor wife, only a fiancee.
But ultimately it wouldn't change much. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/10/2008 12:20:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 08:33:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
My sollution would have been to beat his brains out... |
Well, the "if" in Robb's statement indicates it was just a hypothetical, and that's as far as I'm willing to go with it, too.
And really, whenever someones comes to a rational decision as to whether something is "good" or "bad," that's what they're doing: having at least an internal hypothetical discussion about the pros and cons of whatever act it is in relation to society as a whole (which is why sociopaths have morality issues - they're incapable of caring about society).
Robb seems to think that in absence of the Bible, people just pick one - "good" or "bad" - and run with it. But it's not the case. People can relate the reasons why something is good or bad, and are generally unsatisfied with "it just is." Just as I'd be unsatisfied with "the Bible said so, that's why."
And so I wait to find the reasons why - for discussions purposes only - Robb might think that someone would think that rape is "good." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hell, your final destination?
