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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2008 : 11:27:44 [Permalink]
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 Lots of empty seats in the anuminist section, of course theres a pillar blocking the view from up here.
Edited spelling: so dave can sleep at night. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 01/31/2008 12:27:32 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 12:05:22 [Permalink]
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Big Papa.....
From Google:
Your search - anumenist - did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords. |
?????
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 12:26:53 [Permalink]
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| Hey I can spell my words any way I please, damn lexiconazis! |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2008 : 18:51:34 [Permalink]
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Late to the party, story of my life, but something Robb said back on page 6 pushed one of my buttons.
Robb wrote:
But the central message of Jesus is God and died for forgivness of sins and was raised form the dead so we do ot have to go to hell is really the only thing that we must agree upon to be called Christian. |
So, the way I hear it is this. God sent God down to earth to have God's temporary human form sacrificed temporarily to appease God because the first pair of humans God had created had really disappointed God, as had most of the subsequent ones, which really raises a big question about this claimed omniscience you say God has.
Anyway, God relayed the news in the Bible that now all people had to do to avoid the punishment God put in place for humans after God's disappointment in God's creation was to believe this story, especially the part about the human form used by God & sacrificed to God having then been reanimated by God, and they should also let God take the blame for everything they ever did wrong or thought they did wrong, & then they would get to live happily ever after with God in heaven.
Oh, yeah. That makes sense. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2008 : 03:52:00 [Permalink]
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CHRISTIAN, n.
One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.
I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din --
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.
Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
"God keep you, strange," I exclaimed. "You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too."
He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced:
"What! I a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ." ~~ Ambrose Bierce
Anyway, God relayed the news in the Bible that now all people had to do to avoid the punishment God put in place for humans after God's disappointment in God's creation was to believe this story, especially the part about the human form used by God & sacrificed to God having then been reanimated by God, and they should also let God take the blame for everything they ever did wrong or thought they did wrong, & then they would get to live happily ever after with God in heaven.
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Who would want to?! The fellow is obviously delusional.
Revelation: 17.8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
That is just the sort of thing that could get you involuntarily committed and it causes me to wonder why it is that so many hysterical preachers are still wandering around loose. Not to mention that it's from the tag end of the 'kinder' & 'gentler' New Testament. The OT might have been composed in Bedlam.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 09:53:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I know you weren't asking me, but I care because "you must consent to this authority based for of eternal punishment" is a dangerous worldview that has caused a whole lot of suffering already, and not just from Christians. |
What is your basis for considering suffering a bad thing.
| Isn't it a product of natural forces that even you do not know where these forces came from? So why do you think that I have any power to change my mind and reject faith? |
What makes faith different - in terms of your ability to change your mind - than anything else you've ever thought? Have you never changed your mind about anything? |
Yes of course. How do you as an atheist define the mind? Where do abstract ideas come from such as God. How do you account for my belief in God?
| And why is it that you think that only when God exists do you have some power over your own mindset? Are you saying that your free will is evidence for God's existence? |
Something like that. Why do you trust what your mind is telling you when you believe it is made from random occurances?
Whatever the answer, there is some evidence that perhaps religious ideation is a genetic trait. That is, that we are hard-wired for religious belief to some extent or other. But we're certainly not hard-wired for literalist Christianity. And we're also hard-wired to learn. They don't call it "toilet training" for nothing - human beings aren't genetically programmed to use a commode, we have to be taught that.
What makes faith different? |
Faith is an abstract idea. You cannot touch, smell or see faith. Why do people have faith if thier brain is only made up of chemical interactions and such?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:00:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
We are born with original sin. Its not a choice of ours. How is it "just" that we be tormented in hell for eternity because we are not convinced by an inconsistent and self-contradicting book who's followers use unconvincing and often ignorant lines of argument? And all for something we had no choice in. |
I do not subscribe to the original sin concept of we are sinful because Adam sinned. We do sin in the mothers womb all by ourselves.
If God were to reveal himself to me in a convincing fashion and then give me the choice to accept or reject Him, then perhaps the punishment would be just.
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What would you accept as a "convincing fashion"? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:03:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
Late to the party, story of my life, but something Robb said back on page 6 pushed one of my buttons.
Robb wrote:
But the central message of Jesus is God and died for forgivness of sins and was raised form the dead so we do ot have to go to hell is really the only thing that we must agree upon to be called Christian. |
So, the way I hear it is this. God sent God down to earth to have God's temporary human form sacrificed temporarily to appease God because the first pair of humans God had created had really disappointed God, as had most of the subsequent ones, which really raises a big question about this claimed omniscience you say God has.
Anyway, God relayed the news in the Bible that now all people had to do to avoid the punishment God put in place for humans after God's disappointment in God's creation was to believe this story, especially the part about the human form used by God & sacrificed to God having then been reanimated by God, and they should also let God take the blame for everything they ever did wrong or thought they did wrong, & then they would get to live happily ever after with God in heaven.
Oh, yeah. That makes sense.
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Interesting summary. It is kind of like me saying that we are here because there was nothing, then there was something and then that something changed over millions of years into all the forms of life we have today through chance. I am sure you would not think that that is a good summary of evolution. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 02/07/2008 10:06:31 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:59:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Interesting summary. It is kind of like me saying that we are here because there was nothing, then there was something and then that something changed over millions of years into all the forms of life we have today through chance. I am sure you would not think that that is a good summary of evolution.
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Except that evolution can be clarified and further explained. It isn't inherently nonsensical. However, when Dave pointed out the obvious logical inconsistencies of the salvation account, you replied that you cannot even begin to explain the trinity. So the two aren't really the same. The inherent absurdity of a deity sacrificing itself to satisfy itself has no rational explanation. Not even those who profess belief can begin to make sense of it. So there's quite a big difference between your two examples. It's the difference between pretending something doesn't make sense when it does and pretending something does make sense when it doesn't.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 11:04:20 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| We do sin in the mothers womb all by ourselves. |
How? Did we choose to do that? Embryos have free will? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 11:46:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
What is your basis for considering suffering a bad thing. |
I have suffered. It sucks.| Yes of course. How do you as an atheist define the mind? Where do abstract ideas come from such as God. How do you account for my belief in God? |
None of these questions answer my question of how you have decided that the presence or absence of faith affects your ability to change your mind. But your genetics, your environment and your responses to them are together ultimately responsible for what goes on in your head. They have to be, because there is no evidence of anything else. To suggest that God implants abstract ideas subverts the notion of free will.| And why is it that you think that only when God exists do you have some power over your own mindset? Are you saying that your free will is evidence for God's existence? |
Something like that. |
How close is it? Wouldn't the vast majority of organisms without free will be evidence against God?| Why do you trust what your mind is telling you when you believe it is made from random occurances? |
I don't, I constantly test my conclusions against others. Unless you're talking about a deeper phenomenology, in which case I trust my mind because the alternative is necessarily madness whether you have faith in God or not.| Faith is an abstract idea. You cannot touch, smell or see faith. Why do people have faith if thier brain is only made up of chemical interactions and such? |
Two is an abstract idea. You cannot touch, smell or see two. Why do people have two if their brains are only made up of chemical interactions and such?
Really, why wouldn't such ideas arise if mind is nothing but a property of wholly natural chemical reactions? Whence philosophy in general? How can people comprehend atheism if gray matter is all there is? The alternative is that this conversation cannot take place, Robb, because language itself is an abstract idea.
Plus, neuro- and cognitive scientists don't trumpet the fact that they have the ability to study brains and minds as proof that God exists, whether they're Christian or not. But the fact is that they haven't found anything magical that differentiates humans from chimps from birds (for examples) in terms of the brain's creation of mind. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 11:57:07 [Permalink]
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| We do sin in the mothers womb all by ourselves. |
So I take it Rob, you are pro abortion since God hates fetuses (uh feti?).
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 11:57:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Robb
Interesting summary. It is kind of like me saying that we are here because there was nothing, then there was something and then that something changed over millions of years into all the forms of life we have today through chance. I am sure you would not think that that is a good summary of evolution.
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Except that evolution can be clarified and further explained. It isn't inherently nonsensical. However, when Dave pointed out the obvious logical inconsistencies of the salvation account, you replied that you cannot even begin to explain the trinity. So the two aren't really the same. The inherent absurdity of a deity sacrificing itself to satisfy itself has no rational explanation. Not even those who profess belief can begin to make sense of it. So there's quite a big difference between your two examples. It's the difference between pretending something doesn't make sense when it does and pretending something does make sense when it doesn't. |
To add to what H. said, when science is silent on a subject, the textbooks won't say "it just happened" but instead "we don't know, but we're trying to find out."
How well would it go over if we all asked God just how, exactly, He created Adam from dust? That's not in the textbook.
And actually, your summary is only wrong on a couple points, and those points are fairly esoteric. So you're saying that Zebra's summary of Christianity is pretty close. I don't mind esoterica, so on which points, exactly, does his summary differ from Christian dogma? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 11:11:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
What is your basis for considering suffering a bad thing. |
I have suffered. It sucks. |
Why do you think that your opinion of suffering should apply to others?
| Yes of course. How do you as an atheist define the mind? Where do abstract ideas come from such as God. How do you account for my belief in God? |
None of these questions answer my question of how you have decided that the presence or absence of faith affects your ability to change your mind. But your genetics, your environment and your responses to them are together ultimately responsible for what goes on in your head. They have to be, because there is no evidence of anything else. To suggest that God implants abstract ideas subverts the notion of free will. |
”They have to be” is not an answer.
| How close is it? Wouldn't the vast majority of organisms without free will be evidence against God? |
Maybe, but not proof. In my belief of God as a Christian the Bible is clear that only people can choose to believe or not. Although I would argue that most animals have some ability to comprehend abstract ideas.
| Why do you trust what your mind is telling you when you believe it is made from random occurances? |
I don't, I constantly test my conclusions against others. Unless you're talking about a deeper phenomenology, in which case I trust my mind because the alternative is necessarily madness whether you have faith in God or not. |
Testing you conclusions against other minds that are a product of random occurances does not seem to make much sense. On the second part about madness I agree.
| Faith is an abstract idea. You cannot touch, smell or see faith. Why do people have faith if their brain is only made up of chemical interactions and such? |
Two is an abstract idea. You cannot touch, smell or see two. Why do people have two if their brains are only made up of chemical interactions and such? |
This is my point. How can a brain made from matter and random occurrences in nature comprehend abstract ideas such as two? I think that this is evidence for a God.
| Really, why wouldn't such ideas arise if mind is nothing but a property of wholly natural chemical reactions? Whence philosophy in general? How can people comprehend atheism if gray matter is all there is? The alternative is that this conversation cannot take place, Robb, because language itself is an abstract idea. |
I agree. We can have this conversation because our brains have a “mind” that we cannot figure out how it works. If only natural processes created our brains then how do we have a mind.
Plus, neuro- and cognitive scientists don't trumpet the fact that they have the ability to study brains and minds as proof that God exists, whether they're Christian or not. But the fact is that they haven't found anything magical that differentiates humans from chimps from birds (for examples) in terms of the brain's creation of mind.
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I am not sure why they would.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Hell, your final destination?
