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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 20:11:48 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | Ok. How can you say I am wrong if I was in that room and I punched the other person that was a woman and took the chair. That is a possibility of the senario you put out. Why is that wrong? |
Right and wrong are subjective constructs of sentient beings. Some sentient beings would find this act wrong, probably because it is in their nature for various reasons to have sympathy for the woman who has been punched. Other sentient beings would regard it as right for other reasons. Take Satanists, for instance. (I mean Church of Satan adherents, who are really just a certain type of atheist, not devil worshippers.) Other people would argue it is amoral. How can you prove there is some objective judgment of whether it is really right or wrong or neutral? You can't. That's the difference between actual laws of nature and morals that lots of people like to say and pretend are God's laws or natural moral laws. We know something is a natural law because it can't be broken. Every time a moral law is broken, every time two human beings disagree about whether some specific act is right or wrong, it is proven that morality is in fact not a matter of any objective law.
You have completely missed the point of my hypothetical example. The point is that our cirumstances require us to have concepts of right and wrong. That is where they come from. And the reason so many of our concepts of right and wrong are so similar is because we are all the same species with the same basic nature, needs, and desires. There is no reason to imagine some outside, supernatural force being involved. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2008 : 20:05:38 [Permalink]
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hell, your final destination?
It is just on stop on the way....
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 10:00:20 [Permalink]
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When I read Robb, can't help but think, been there, done that... reminds me of what I was three years back. The whole nine yards, "pricked in the heart", "conviction of the soul", "fear of eternal torment", "hellfire conversion", months of emotional trauma and "seeking" before thinking I had finally found "the one true religion".
Let me preface all this by saying, TALK IS CHEAP.
Robb is the classical "hot for Christ" baby Christian. There's nothing much you can do to knock him off his perch now, he's probably feeling invincible right now, and ego trip under the cloak of "being saved".
However, a few years down the line, he will go thru doors 1), 2) or 3):
1) Will soon tire of the hypocrisy (among other things) going on in his church, speak up about it, get framed for "causing variance" by fellow, earlier, more "senior" members of his church, and get thrown out. Once pushed out of the church environment, the alternate universe falls apart.
2) Will seemingly live a contented christian life for quite some time. Then will come into contact with another congregation which is twice as fervent as his, and be told by them that he is not really saved. Goes thru the whole "pricked in the heart", "hellfire and judgment" sleepness nights and all, ALL OVER AGAIN. Gets "properly saved" this time. Has to go thru doors 1), 2) or 3) again. Hopefully he will pass away before that happens.
3) Will work his way up the church hierarchy, and become one of the bastards mentioned in 1) who abuses/outs other members in his church for what he believes to be "apostasy".
For the record, I went thru door number 1). Lost all my "friends", got told repeatedly I will go to hell twice over, had to move to another town, etc. Try telling me this is what God intended!
Have fun tit-for-tatting with him for now, the deadlock will continue until his high subsides... |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 11:25:04 [Permalink]
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Welcome timothwc! I, too, and am ex-christian - though it has been many moons since I was ensnared by the emotional spider web that is religion.
The argument though will be that you weren't really a christian. Ex-christians were not real christians, otherwise they would still be christians. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 13:36:02 [Permalink]
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First of all: welcome timothwc!
Reading your post, I definitely see where you come from. Been there, done that... some 15 years ago. But I still occasionally relapse into the Magical Thinking that was programmed into me by the Pentecostal church where I used to live.
Originally posted by timothwc
However, a few years down the line, he will go thru doors 1), 2) or 3):
1) Will soon tire of the hypocrisy (among other things) going on in his church, speak up about it, get framed for "causing variance" by fellow, earlier, more "senior" members of his church, and get thrown out. Once pushed out of the church environment, the alternate universe falls apart.
<snip>
For the record, I went thru door number 1). Lost all my "friends", got told repeatedly I will go to hell twice over, had to move to another town, etc. Try telling me this is what God intended!
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In my case, door #1 looked slightly different. It wasn't as much my pointing out hypocrisy, as being a too free-thinking science buff. Instead of being told I'm heading from hell, they just slowly froze me out from the community bit by bit, making me have to work hard to just keep up with the "gang". Eventually I just tired of it, and started to question the point of having a community based on "Jesus and his preachings" in the first place, when not everyone is included.
I tried other congregations, but the story was the same. It just took me much less time to figure it out.
Have fun tit-for-tatting with him for now, the deadlock will continue until his high subsides...
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I think we will keep feeding him skepticism. Sometimes he actually seems to be listening to our arguments, and we wouldn't want to miss out the opportunity to teach him to use the gifts of intellect God has bestowed upon him...
Edited to add:
Your and my experiences of Christianity and its Churches is by no means unique on this board. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/19/2008 13:42:22 |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 20:31:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Welcome timothwc! I, too, and am ex-christian - though it has been many moons since I was ensnared by the emotional spider web that is religion.
The argument though will be that you weren't really a christian. Ex-christians were not real christians, otherwise they would still be christians.
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Here's the website of the asshole who kicked me out:
http://www.calvaryroadbaptist.org
The asshole recently posted a sermon called "bitterness" in response to the membership purges he has done the last few months. The troops are grumbling, and the first thing this loser does is imply (in his sermon) that those who oppose him are simply bitter. Read his stuff, you'll soon find out when he wants to help himself to even more power, he simply preaches about how we all need to submit to God, when what he really means is that we all need to submit to his (the pastor's) whims |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 21:51:55 [Permalink]
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One thing. Robb is not a new member here. He is always polite and often interesting. I may not often agree with him, but I like the guy.
I just needed to say that... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 10:48:27 [Permalink]
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Concerning the original post: Ah, where to start. Now that I've been orphaned from my home church, it's time I get some things which are SERIOUSLY WRONG about Christemdom (esp. the fundamentalist, fire-brimestone type) out of my chest.
First, the doctrine of hell and how it affects believer's attitude towards "outsiders" when put into practice: since it is taught that almost everyone is going to be eternally tortured, and that this decision was made long ago and unchangable, it gives believers great incentive to be callous and cold towards outsiders. Why? Because it would tear them apart to care about the many they don't reach, since "almost everyone" is going to hell. It is so much more comforting to think "those outside" are a bunch of druggie-communist-islam terrorist-sympathizers who deserve it anyways. Of course the Bible teaches us such things as to "love thy neighbor", but as far as I know the influence of that verse is dwarfed by the effect of the previous doctrine.
I know this by experience. Those in my church, beyond their polite exterior, are pretty hate-filled beings. I've just realised it's just a defense mechanism. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 11:31:17 [Permalink]
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Well said Tim, thats good insight. If Ghandi can't change their minds, it's not likely anyone will. Unfortunately this is not a passive problem, how many wars were justified because of this false evil they project on others, not to mention the millions of minor incidents of general hatred, such as telling someone you dont really know that they will burn in hell.
Naturally this phenomenon applies to most fervent socio-political groups, I have cringed many times at the way we lump all Christians in with the most the most extreme of them. A solution to this problem is hard to see from here.
Edit: I think think this stems from our obsession with duality, aka "either or syndrome". This problem prevades all aspects of our society. To me it's painfully obvious that we are a result of both nature and nurture. There are a million other examples. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/21/2008 11:41:00 |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 13:30:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well said Tim, thats good insight. If Ghandi can't change their minds, it's not likely anyone will. Unfortunately this is not a passive problem, how many wars were justified because of this false evil they project on others, not to mention the millions of minor incidents of general hatred, such as telling someone you dont really know that they will burn in hell.
Naturally this phenomenon applies to most fervent socio-political groups, I have cringed many times at the way we lump all Christians in with the most the most extreme of them. A solution to this problem is hard to see from here.
Edit: I think think this stems from our obsession with duality, aka "either or syndrome". This problem prevades all aspects of our society. To me it's painfully obvious that we are a result of both nature and nurture. There are a million other examples.
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Of course the fundie will snap back by saying this is just an excuse not to accept their worldview. This is another problem with these "true believers": they are always in a hurry to shoehorn anything unpleasant into their framework, and so any questions raised are immediately categorized as rebellion.
Let's assume for a moment what they're saying is true, that all of us are headed for hell, and it's their mission to save a few of us. The Bible we must be ready to explain why we have hope for the future.
But how is anybody supposed to feel hopeful when there is less than one convert a year ON TOP OF THE FACT that you've pretty much kicked all the previous converts, so the only people who are left are the inner clique(the ones the pastor can't kick out), and the noobs who don't have a clue about the trauma they're about to be subject to? HOPELESS HOPELESS HOPELESS
The above is a portrait of the thousands of fundy congregations active in America today.
Of course the fundie will then say the converts were kicked out because they broke church rules, and that newcomers are few because people outside are all druggie-biker gang-sinners. Earth to fundie: PERHAPS THE REASON FOR PEOPLE LEAVING AND NOBODY COMING IN IS BECAUSE YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF ASSHOLES WHO HAVE A DYSFUNCTIONAL METHOD OF RUNNING A RELIGION?
Which brings us to another problem fundies have: the refusal to face failure, and the urge to blame those who didn't "make it" in their program. It's always, THEY(those who didn't "make it") were sinful, THEY followed their lusts, THEY opposed God...
Fundies always have this tunnel vision problem of trying to expand faster by selling their fire-and-brimstone thang to a large amount of people, and ignoring other parts of scripture and other intangibles, like the Biblical theme of hope. And they still scratch their heads when the wheels of their congregation come off.
Hope is an important element in any movement. Just ask Mr. Obama. And Christianity desperately needs it right now. |
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andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 23:36:37 [Permalink]
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| Wow...... I dont even know where to begin. First there is the fact that some BAPTISTS believe in "once saved always saved" this, in my humble opinion, is a very dangerous doctrine. Firstly because NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY YOU CANT LOSE YOUR SALVATION!! And secondly because, among other things, it produces the very attitudes some of you complained of and rightly so. I am so very sorry that you guys were treated that way by people who claim to be Christians. There are few grounds on which to force some one to leave the church. And it is pretty much summed up like this. If the person refuses to leave a completely, and openly, immoral life style then you are to "kick them out," and as Christians they should still try and reach out to this person. It is horrendous that this occurs in churches today. And I implore you guys not to clump all churches i.e. their members into that group. Christians are people to and we do make mistakes, but it sounds to me like these churches were spiritually dead to me. Paul even wrote about these churches in Revelations ch.3. In 1st Peter ch.2 v8 it even describes how Christians are to behave. Again Christians are people and we aren't perfect. I hope you all take something from this!! God bless :D |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 05:54:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
Wow...... I dont even know where to begin. First there is the fact that some BAPTISTS believe in "once saved always saved" this, in my humble opinion, is a very dangerous doctrine. Firstly because NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY YOU CANT LOSE YOUR SALVATION!! |
No where in the Bible does it say that one shouldn't eat shit. The lack of such a statement doesn't make it "good" to eat shit.
Lack of evidence for X isn't evidence for the non-existence of X.
That Baptist doctrine didn't come from nowhere, so there must be at least some support in the Bible for it. At least I can take comfort in such a doctrine, because it means that I can have the cake and eat it at the same time. Yay!
| And secondly because, among other things, it produces the very attitudes some of you complained of and rightly so. |
How so? To me, this seems like a non-sequitur. Like I said, anyone can have the cake and eat it at the same time. Why shouldn't such people be inclusive of others?
| I am so very sorry that you guys were treated that way by people who claim to be Christians. There are few grounds on which to force some one to leave the church. And it is pretty much summed up like this. If the person refuses to leave a completely, and openly, immoral life style then you are to "kick them out," and as Christians they should still try and reach out to this person. |
So, they want to throw away the cake, and still save it. Given that people who were "kicked out" are still people who can take offence by the treatment from their fellow Christians, would you blame people like me and timothwc when we tell proselytizing Christians they can go to hell?
(Note, I'm not telling you to do that. You came here to learn about us and science, and I respect that. I just can't tolerate Christians who are intolerant of others.)
| It is horrendous that this occurs in churches today. |
Agreed!
| And I implore you guys not to clump all churches i.e. their members into that group. |
And yet, we're not using a sample size of one. I have experience of several churches, and people like timothwc and other members brings their own samples. It's not every Church, but enough samples to see a trend.
| Christians are people to and we do make mistakes, but it sounds to me like these churches were spiritually dead to me. |
Well, you wouldn't be in any position to judge, since (as far as I know) you haven't been to anyone of them. As for Christians making mistakes, yes everyone does from time to time. But I've seen too many Christians not owning up to their mistakes, and who never even seemed to try to improve themselves.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 06:15:25 [Permalink]
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From my own experience, the observation of how Christians treated each other and The Others when I was a Christian was but a small piece to the puzzle which, when I completed it, took me to reality and away from willful ignorance that is religion. The larger pieces were the lies, mistakes, and other "anomalies" present in the Bible as compared to reality, and the quite primitive and shifting view of god presented. The abuse of logic was also a big piece, as well as the appeal to emotion, which is all that (at least fundamentalist) religions are based on.
Edited to add: Once I was free of the trappings of Christianity, I looked at other religions, especially Buddhism. But only briefly, because I had acquired the tools to look at these with a critical eye, and they were all found wanting. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 02/26/2008 09:21:26 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2008 : 06:22:57 [Permalink]
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| No where in the Bible does it say that one shouldn't eat shit. The lack of such a statement doesn't make it "good" to eat shit. |
Kings 18:27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
As can be seen, eating shit is encouraged -- why am I getting back into this endless thread? Where the hell is Doomar? He's the one who started this mess. Doo, get your scungy, old ass back in here!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 08:59:56 [Permalink]
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Wow, I didn't expect the amount of replies I would generate. Thanks everyone for trying really hard to make out what I am trying to say, considering where y'all coming from :)
First of all, let me preface that I am NOT a full-blown skeptic. I still believe there are supernatural consequences to wrongdoing, and is of the opinion pointing out the faults of beliefs is a waste of time (esp to fundies) since they have all internalized these faults as being "mysteries of god".
I DO think that a large part of my skepticism comes from seeing that a large part what I held to be divine intervention turned out to be pretty mundane, or a flat-out sociological phenom at best. I used to think when people left/got kicked out it was God's hand in separating "the sheeps and the goats". Then I realised the simple explanation was that the "politically immune group" was disposing of un-like-minded, less immune people because they couldn't be bothered to manage them.
I think there's a LARGE chance I will attend church again, since I think it's simply a faction of Christianity that's causing all the trouble...
Take for instance the death of Jerry Falwell. Regardless of what your beliefs are relative to him, before his death he greatly moderated his stance, throwing out Calvinism. Now Westboro Baptist church issued a statement convinced that God will judge him because of that. My take is that Falwell finally realized the amount of suffering that doctrine was causing people, and his conscience compelled him to reject that belief.
You may have heard of Calvinism, but I experienced it first-hand. It is a VERY DISGUSTING doctrine. Essentially it means almost nobody goes to heaven, doing anything is no good(so why do "good"), you are commanded to search all your life for God (but it only matters if God was searching for you in the first place).
It sounded good at first. God's decision concerning who goes to heaven being final sounded good. We are all infinitely bad - that sounded good because of egalitarian implications. Everyone else going to hell sounded okay - after all, who cares about "them"?
But then, chinks in the armor started to appear. I saw parishioners were trying to avoid doing bad instead of doing good. I let that slide - man IS the source of all suffering, so we must suppress ourselves, I told myself. I didn't see the difference between those who got kicked out and those who got to stay. But I needed a reason to believe that the ones who stayed (that means moi) were somehow "better", so I let that slide too.
The straw that finally broke the camel's back was when I left stateside, away from the fundy influence. My pastor was demanding I return to the States from day one. Gradually I realised beneath their civil, pious exteriors were cold and callous human beings. I began murmuring about various authoritarian practices in the church and the self-serving sermons that pastor would give. Somehow this pastor (who seems to be able to eavesdrop of anything) got a hold of what I said and told me that I was dead to him.
Poof. It was like I never attended that church from then on.
This ordeal led me to believe that Calvinism, NOT Christianity, is the problem. Calvinism, by adverse selection attracts the most cold-blooded people who don't really mind if they're the only person going to heaven, to be its leaders. Its assertion that all people are infinitely bad provides an excuse for leaders to exert unreasonable discipline, it's insistence that decisions about who gets "saved" are final, very few, and effectively random offers comforting explanations to why virtually nobody "makes it" in their system(ie gets kicked out or leaves). Its insistence that God uses some unknowable force to "save" people simply allows the abusive pastor/church consensus to declare who is "saved" (and therefore bestow privileges), and who is not (actually they teach only God knows who is "saved", but for operational reasons, the leadership must create a group of people perceived to be better than others - the "saved").
I understand since most of you are unchurched, or at most attended church to fulfill social/brain needs, so you won't understand everything in my manifesto. (I've been to a church inspired by Fred Phelp's teachings, then to a church they spawned.) You who haven't experienced it won't really feel what I'm talking about; it's true that mainstream protestanism is bleeding to death slowly, but for every one of me (who leaves), there are five who get sucked into this kind of thing. They prey on the most vulnerable: the orphan, the single mom, the idealistic college kid, etc. When they come to your town or lock away someone you love, then it will hit home.
PS I don't think my fear of eternal torture will never subside, since non-religiously trained people, such as the rapper Tupac, have had visions of hell. Maybe somebody would care to explain that.
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| Edited by - timothwc on 02/26/2008 09:04:37 |
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Hell, your final destination?
