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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:13:32 [Permalink]
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| As an aside, I was just recently told by a creationist that I would have made a good Calvanist, but it was because he mistook my discussion of Ecclesiastes for an assumption of predestination. But there's a big difference between "we can't know how God will judge" and "nothing we do matters." He couldn't see the distinction. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:21:51 [Permalink]
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Tim, evidently you are a Deist, rather like most of our Founding Fathers. No big deal, there are several on these boards. And I, a hard atheist, occasionally attend Biker's Church.
I would not trust the dreams of some rapper, or anyone else for that matter, for information on the supernatural.
Welcome to SFN!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:45:29 [Permalink]
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PS I don't think my fear of eternal torture will never subside, since non-religiously trained people, such as the rapper Tupac, have had visions of hell. Maybe somebody would care to explain that.
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Smoking a lot of pot and dropping acid will mess you up.
People have bad dreams all the time. Usually after they read a scary book or watch a scary movie.
Add in excessive use of mind altering substances...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:49:21 [Permalink]
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I began questioning this religion thing as far back as when I was five years old or earlier. I would be dragged to Sunday school and learn "Jesus Loves Me" and "Jesus Lovs the Little Children" then on Monday I would give a few cents to the "March of Dimes" to fight polio. I would ask my mother why children were getting polio; my dear mother would try to answer, but all her efforts were unsatisfactory. The Salk vaccine was my emancipation, I could finally go swimming at the public swimming pool!! It was explained that the Salk vaccine was the answer to our prayers.
On September 11, 2001, I began studying this religion called Islam and concluded it was a cult built by this vengeful man named Mohammed. I concluded that Islam was man made, and so were all the other religions. |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:54:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by timothwc
PS I don't think my fear of eternal torture will never subside, since non-religiously trained people, such as the rapper Tupac, have had visions of hell. Maybe somebody would care to explain that. |
I'm not sure what specific story about Tupac you mean, but the culture one is raised in has a huge impact on one's view of the afterlife. An American doesn't need to be "religiously trained" to learn about the basic concept hell. Even cartoons depict hell as a place of fire populated with red, horned devils. So that's not very difficult to explain.
More revealing is the fact that near-death experiences vary with culture. Christians sometimes report meeting Jesus, but Muslims sometimes report meeting Mohamed, and Indians sometimes report meeting Shiva. Easy to explain if these "visions" aren't of anything real. More difficult if one wishes to assert them as evidence of an actual afterlife.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/26/2008 11:02:42 |
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andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 10:39:15 [Permalink]
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Wow at first I was kinda thinkin that an example for" Wow...... I dont even know where to begin. First there is the fact that some BAPTISTS believe in "once saved always saved" this, in my humble opinion, is a very dangerous doctrine. Firstly because "NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY YOU CANT LOSE YOUR SALVATION" and then I read filtys post. It is a prime example of how people can take a single piece of a chapter or even part of a verse and build a doctrine around that piece.
Example: "Kings 18:27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
As can be seen, eating shit is encouraged -- why am I getting back into this endless thread?" (sorry for the not knowing how to properly add quotes)
The baptists get their doctrine of "once saved always saved" by similar means. FYI I went to a baptist church 2 years prior to entering the Air force, I learned this first hand. The verse they like to use is in Romans. Ch 8 verses 38& 39 to be exact. These verses describe how nothing can remove us from the love of Christ. Which is true, you cant do anything that makes Christ love you less.But they use that to say that you cannot lose your salvation. As creatures of free will we are just as capable of leaving a relationship with God as we are entering into one. This is specifically addressed in 2 Peter Ch2. This chapter is addressing false teachers who preach dangerous/false doctrines and then to people of the faith who walk away from Christ to follow these doctrines. However Christ has made a promise to those who will CONTINUE TO ABIDE in Him( maintain a relationship with) that they will not lose their salvation. Its 100% conditional, we have to maintain a right relationship with Him. You cannot serve two masters. Just as you cannot serve the world i.e a sinful life style, and serve Christ. My point in that monologue is that you must not simply let someone give you a verse and then build up a case without looking for yourself to validate what the intent of the verse and chapter is. The verse that Filthy provided us with was dialog from an Assyrian emissary (a Rabshake) to the people of Israel. A threat as to their fate when the Assyrians attacked. A mockery of them. Not encouragement to eat feces and drink urine. So please don't take someones biblical quotations at face value. Look it up for your selves. God bless :D |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 13:38:23 [Permalink]
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Very good Andrew!
This is what I mean when I've been talking about discussing evidence and closer examining the implications of it.
I stand corrected, it would seem I'm un-saved and hell-bound after all...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/26/2008 13:40:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 15:10:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I still want to know how 1 John 2:2 doesn't mean that everyone is saved, regardless.
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Found this...gives me a headache though.
Seems to quibble a lot over the the meaning of "the whole world." I think this guy is interpreting to mean something which he can't accept, therefore he can throw out the "everyone is saved".
I guess I might be biased, though, since I am/was saved.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 01:34:58 [Permalink]
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| Saying that everyone somehow gets saved at the end would do Christianity justice, because as far as I'm concerned, the fundies are the only faction doing any form of evangelism, and they themselves are struggling to prove that they are sane, much less prove that their beliefs are real |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 02:11:13 [Permalink]
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| Karel Capek was a Czech novelist (who invented the word "robot" though he generally wasn't a science fiction writer.) Capek wrote a short story titled "The Last Judgment" is which he shows through he course of the narrative that God cannot judge a life because he knows everything. Capek's allegorical story illustrates that a subjective judgment can only be made with selective information. A supreme being who introduces and knows every aspect and implication of a life story eventually floods it with contradictions. Therefore, a criminal in the story is judged by humans. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:21:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
It is a prime example of how people can take a single piece of a chapter or even part of a verse and build a doctrine around that piece.
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Andrew that's very insightful. Why would the inerrant word of God be so vulnerable to (mis)interpretation? I don't believe that God really planned on this free will thing. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:28:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I still want to know how 1 John 2:2 doesn't mean that everyone is saved, regardless.
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I read a book several years ago by Joseph Wheless Is it God's Word. In one section he identifies every verse contained in the Bible that talks about what it takes to be saved. Much longer list than I expected. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:33:34 [Permalink]
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1st John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
That is a good question. I've got the answer for you in this well known verse. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That WHO SO EVER SHOULD BELIEVE IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life. Yet again like so many things with God, it is conditional.
My friends God loves you, but he did give us free will and you are responsible for "believing in him" if you want to be saved. Just like everyone else in the world that he died for. Including myself
Chippawa, I have a quick proposal, Capek is using a human assumption/perspective on fairness and justice, is he not?? How can he say that God is even subject to our own screwed up idea of justice. Just look at our court systems. We don't really seem to have a good idea of what justice is anymore?? So do you think it is really fair to attempt to judge God by our own messed up standards???
Oh, and Dr Mabuse. We all, at some point, are in that same boat sir. I sincerely hope that you don't let yourself be resigned to that situation. I would like to refer you to the above verse John 3:16. God Bless all |
| Edited by - andrew19 on 02/28/2008 09:38:45 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:51:06 [Permalink]
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| If god knows everything then there is no such thing as free will. Deal with it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Hell, your final destination?
