|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2009 : 18:24:25 [Permalink]
|
[i]Originally posted by pleco
how could she know she was sinning if she had no knowledge of what evil was?
God told her she would die if she ate of that tree...Eve knew dying was not good. The knowledge of what death was, absence of life, was surely part of Adam and Eve's understanding. These were not stupid people. You don't need to swim in the water to know it is dangerous and Eve did not need to experience sin to know that disobeying God would not be a good thing. Part of that knowledge gained was that of experience, a bad experience. It was never necessary to disobey God to know it would be bad, just like it is not necessary to jump over a cliff to know the landing would be bad. Basic knowledge of how things worked was part of Eve's knowledge. The experience of sin brought an evil experiential knowledge of the forbidden, of good and evil, not just the basic knowledge. To think Eve was oblivious to danger is stretching the point.
And you conveniently skip over the part where God already knew all this would happen, therefore Eve had no choice and was doomed to begin with.
The hyper-calvinists agree with you, but I am not one of them. Man was made in God's image with a will, a choice. Foreknowledge is not evil. It is not the same as causing an event to happen. Eve had a choice and she chose poorly. Those that make the laws in our society are not responsible for those who break them.
When is someone gonna find that flaming sword guarding the Garden?
That tree of life is now in heaven, but will one day be planted again on earth.
Maybe we should discuss how Adam and Eve's children had to commit incest in order to populate the world.
Incest was not a bad thing in the beginning when such things were necessary.
Or is all this moot since you are going to interpret the bible to include information that isn't state to satisfy these plot holes?
There are no holes in the plot, just our understanding at times.
It is amazing how closed minds shut out anything and everything that contradicts the little box that have placed around their world. Cognitive dissonance - hallowed be thy name.
|
Yes, why do you do that? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
 |
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 18:47:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Zebra
I go away for a few days, & the thread comes back to life! I'll have to rethink my stance on resurrection. 
Indeed, you should!
Doomar, my only errors in my interpretation of the Bible are: not putting on my God-does-no-wrong blinders, and not taking my this-has-to-be-interpreted-in-a-way-that-glorifies-God mind-altering pill, before I read it (and think about it - oh, wait, that's probably another "error").
It's a big error to think we can judge the Almighty or think we know so much with our puny understanding. It's called pride.
I find Biblical analysis & critique to be interesting (was going to comment on the Lazarus story you quoted earlier in this thread, but didn't want to put everyone through that). I do not find, in the Bible or elsewhere, evidence to support the claim that God or gods exist, but I do have "cognitive flexibility" and am able to make the (unwarranted IMO) assumption that God exists, then see what logically follows from that. One point: If God exists, then he knows what I'm like and knows what it would take to convince me, yet not strip away my free will. Scientists can convince me without violating my free will simply by presenting reliable evidence; why couldn't God do that?
An evidence of God is the ability to tell the future far in advance. Scientists, particularly probability experts, will give you the odds of predicting a particular event, place, person, etc. The more items involved in the prediction the greater the improbability of it happening. There are hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament and quite a few more in the New, some not yet fulfilled, but hundred have been. Christ was predicted to be the Son of God (Ps.2), like Moses (Deut 18:15), born of a virgin (Is 7:14), born in Bethlehem Ephratah (Mic 5:2)These are just a couple out of over 300. All these came to pass. Ask any expert in probability the chances of even one of these things happening. Only God can see and predict the future. This is solid evidence that God exists to an inquiring mind.
| Of course they were supposed to live forever in perfect fellowship with God, but they die spiritually immediately, cut off from God by their sin, and then eventually they died physically. |
This is an assumption which you and other Christians make.
It is clear from the context of the story, the tree of life, that man was made to live forever. It is not supposition. When Christ came to earth he brought the same promise back: "He that believes in me has everlasting life."
| And so it is, not what you interpreted, but the words of the Bible are definitely true. |
The contents of the Bible are definitely words. "True" is another matter. Shall we quote some assertions made in the Bible which are demonstrably untrue? I'll bet we can come up with quite a list.
|
If you'd like to try, why not make a new thread for that. We've already digressed from the subject of hell quite a bit and I would like to stick with it. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 18:54:59 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, I'm remaining friendly, and optimistic, as I fully expect Doomar, and Crusadex, to send me all their money, and sell all their property, and send me all the money from that.
If they believe in their Bible, they believe in their Bible.
|
Looking for a freebee, Gorgo? My Bible doesn't teach that one. That's the liberal bible they read on Capitol Hill. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 18:56:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Zebra when considering the existence of God/gods, a definition [i]would be a useful place to start. Often, this step is overlooked.
|
Go ahead and give us one, Zebra. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:04:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Doomar
It's a big error to think we can judge the Almighty or think we know so much with our puny understanding. It's called pride. |
And yet you cannot refrain from doing so.| Ask any expert in probability the chances of even one of these things happening. |
The probability is very close to one since the New Testament was written in order to convince people that the Old Testament prophecies had been fulfilled.  | Only God can see and predict the future. |
And any man can read previous predictions and then write a story which claims to have fulfilled it.
Besides, I can predict the future: you, Doomar, will fail to appreciate the fact that the NT was not written by just anyone, but instead by messianic Jews with a keen knowledge of the OT.| This is solid evidence that God exists to an inquiring mind. |
No, it is solid evidence only to the prejudiced mind. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:04:43 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Randy
Doomar snips:
I have found in this forum that like rats who scurry about in the dark, so are skeptics that reject the idea that there is a God who made all things and knows all things. The rats stay together in groups in the dark environments, comforting themselves that their state of darkness is really light and truth as they shield themselves from certain realities of life: they will all die, they will stand before God and give account for their life (the judgment).
|
Considering Doomar restarts this [i]year old thread with the above sleazebag comment, I thought H.H.'s reply was quite apropos.
|
I apologize for that comparison. I did not mean to equate you folks with literal rats. Bad example. You folks are human beings of utmost value and I'm sorry for that demeaning terminology. It was the light idea I was thinking about. I would not spend hours of my time talking with "rats" nor would you. That is not how I think of any of you...except maybe Dave (lol). I do recognize the inappropriate comparison. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:06:20 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, I'm remaining friendly, and optimistic, as I fully expect Doomar, and Crusadex, to send me all their money, and sell all their property, and send me all the money from that.
If they believe in their Bible, they believe in their Bible.
|
Looking for a freebee, Gorgo? My Bible doesn't teach that one. That's the liberal bible they read on Capitol Hill.
|
I've shown you two places where your Bible "teaches" that. Do you pick and choose what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:24:13 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by moakley
So your God must be very conflicted. He loves us, but is willing to send us to eternal torment, Poor God, if only he had left better evidence of his existence.
|
God teaches what is good and what is bad. You agree with some of His definition but disagree in vital points.
|
From my perspective your God has no definitions of his own since what we believe about him is defined by man.
Originally posted by Doomar
The evidence of God is there. Did you expect everything to just fall in your lap.
|
In what way is this evidence independently observable. It's not, that is why your religion places such a high value on faith.
Originally posted by Doomar
... snip …
|
Sometimes reading your posts is like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher. There really is nothing original nor compelling in your beliefs. There is very little that we have not already heard, many times, and considered weak in regard to what makes a compelling case by which truth can be determined.
Originally posted by Doomar
moakley-- Anyway Doomar where is this hell that you are so frightened of.
|
Hell is below us. It is part of a spiritual realm.
|
This answer is almost child like, reflexive, and innocent. Below us takes us toward the center of the earth, crust, mantle, outer core, and inner core. Seems like the Bible, being the word of God, should mention which layer. A clear demonstration that he understood just what had been created.
|
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:25:01 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Doomar has engaged a skeptical forum and accused its participants in general of being "rats." Yet he will not answer pertinent questions. No even Biblical queries asked politely (as with my repeated question of how the story of Job fits into his concept of a "god of love.")
|
My apologies again about the rat comment.
I didn't see your question about Job, HM.
God tested Job's faith by some horrendous tests that were conducted by Satan. They included losing family members in a storm, most of his property and wealth, and even his health. All of us go through similar (if lesser)trials in life. Job's faith was tried, but did not fail. His famous line is, "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him."
Job's love for God was on the line, but God was actually boasting of Job's faith and was very pleased with him. After the trials were over, Job's friends (comforters)who had berated him through it all were in trouble with God and God let them know it. They had accused Job wrongly during his trials, thinking he had committed some horrendous sin, but he hadn't. The trials were not due to his sin and so it is in life many times.
It says, God also healed job when he prayed for his friends. Job forgave them and prayed for God to have mercy on them and He did. Bad behavior is not without consequence, but God is merciful and forgives those who turn from their sin. This is loving kindness and tender mercy.
Through it all, Job had a great vision of God and was struck with awe and shame in the presence of God. His faith was rewarded, though he did suffer some rebuke.
God blessed the rest of Job's life, granting him many more children and even greater possessions than he had before. I'd say this was a good ending. The trials made Job a better man and strengthened his faith in a loving God.
When I think of Job in comparison with my small trials, I am comforted that God cares and is well aware of what is happening and will work it all things together for my good (Rom8:28). |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:28:43 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Doomar
So you believe the flood really occurred in history? That would be acknowledging some accuracy in the Bible and that God exists. If so, I can move on to why.
|
If we don't buy that nonsense, you won't move on to why?
How about Luke 6:30: “Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.”
Please, please, can I have all your money? And then, can you please sell all your property and send me the money from the sale?
|
Here is your verse of understanding: Matthew 7:6 (NKJV) 6“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
|
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:36:56 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
Undoubtedly, since God created everything, He must have created evil. And we know evil existed before the Fall, because if it hadn't then the Tree couldn't have contained knowledge of evil, the Serpent would have been incapable of tempting Eve and Adam would have been incapable of disobeying God...
Dave, the first angel (Satan)that fell into sin started evil, not God. Yes, it occurred before the world was created. John 8:44 (KJV) 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I am able to follow an argument to its logical conclusions even if I believe the premises to be false.
|
If the argument upsets your way of thinking will you consider that you may be wrong? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:49:30 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by Zebra
when considering the existence of God/gods, a definition would be a useful place to start. Often, this step is overlooked.
|
Go ahead and give us one, Zebra.
|
You're the one who brought up God, and the one who knows all about God, including what God wants. Definition is in your court.
|
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 19:51:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by pleco
I hope for Doomar's sake that he's got the right god, and that the Bible wasn't actually written under the influence of the Devil. Since the Devil is able to influence physical objects, including the chemicals in the brain to produce euphoric feelings when thinking about Him, it is entirely possible and not falsifiable that the Devil is actually behind the writings of the Bible, and that everyone who goes to church and prays/glorifies what they think is God is actually worshiping the Devil. All the good feelings derived were just manipulations done to the brain. Any prayers answered were done by the Devil to help keep his trick in place. After all, He is the Master Decepticon.
|
You grant him too much credit in one regard and not enough in the other.
(a point of philosophy: if you already have the folks in your grasp, you don't have to work very hard to keep them...unless there is a Savior taking them from you.)
You grant too little power to God who has all power, while Satan, though a master deceiver, has limited power. You seem to be unaware of the Holy Ghost who convinces all in the world of what is sin, what is righteous, and brings judgment.
You also seem to deny the witness of Christians who validate the power of God by the remarkable things He has done for them. These same people, able to discern Satan and even cast him out of other people.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV) 4In whom the god of this world (Satan)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Another point you may be unaware of: Satan is under the power of sin, also. He cannot escape it. Sin, when committed, takes hold of a being and binds them under its influence and they cannot escape without the help of God. The only thing on earth that can remove sin and its stain from a soul: "the blood of Jesus Christ." I John 1:7
|
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 20:02:37 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by moakley
A God as intelligent as your God is supposed to be should understand that a firm belief, to many, is a bad way to determine the validity of any assertion. And you have got me going to your religions hell. Well that's not very nice since it is your God's injustice of meting out punishment to good people whose only crime is not believing in him. The heck with that, I believe that your God is going to the hell of a more power God for its heinous acts of punishing good people.
|
The assumption that you or anyone else is good in the sight of God is a bad one. Have you read the ten commandments? By your own admission you not only don't believe in God, but you condemn Him and think you are better than He. That would make you a violator of several of the first few commandments. God justifies even the sinful man who believes in Him. His standard for fallen man is not perfect behavior, but faith. "being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
It is sad to see you harden your heart. Humility is far more virtuous and necessary than you think. Next step: abasement. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 20:36:13 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Looking for a freebee, Gorgo? My Bible doesn't teach that one. That's the liberal bible they read on Capitol Hill.
|
I've shown you two places where your Bible "teaches" that. Do you pick and choose what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe?
[/quote]
Because you are foolish in your interpretation of what you don't believe. Read some of my other comments and find your answer. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Hell, your final destination?
