|
|
|
JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
 Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:57:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by JustMe
Wanted to quickly post this rather sharp rebuke from Dr. Zahn in response to an invitation from Heins to join him at NASA. More later...
|
What is so sharp about it?
He is requesting Thane really does make careful measurements on his contrapment. How much power is drawn from the outlet? Note that he have the good sense to ask for phase angle of the current. That is important and often overlooked when measuring power from an outlet. He is also asking for shaft power (torque and speed).
This really is a minimal required set of tests for detecting funky stuff within the induction engine.
Zahn has become guilty by association with Mr. Heins claims of overunity, and I can perfectly well understand why he doesn't like it.
|
I didn't in any way imply it was bad sharp, or innapropriately sharp, just that it was sharp. Which on the matter of Mr. Heins' beliefs that he has something that breaks the laws of physics, it is. It's the first feedback of sorts we have from Dr. Zahn, and I thought it good information. *Of course* any specific tests and measurements he can recommend are important, and a positive step towards understanding the effect.
Are people on here going to misunderstand me forever, or just until we stop talking about this?  |
 |
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 09:28:23 [Permalink]
|
| It sounds like Zahn already understands the effect, or at least has a solid, testable hypothesis regarding it. The question is whether Heins will follow Zahn's advice. Given how much Heins already has invested in this, and using history as a guide, the odds are that Heins will not do any testing which has a possibility of showing the effect to be due to some mundane and already-understood process. Zahn's email suggests that after two years, Heins has yet to even measure the input or output power of the device, so it's unlikely that he will do anything more sophisticated (like comparing the one to the other). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 09:51:18 [Permalink]
|
Heins' response to Dr. Zahn's email can be found at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4047.315.html for anybody who may be interested. I posted the URL (which I hope is pithy enough for all) rather than the text because there are some other comments there that were interesting (to me) as well, and the dialog may be ongoing for a bit.
I've thought for a few days that his lack of discretion with all the posting of the private email and conversations and such is probably going to cost him. I wouldn't be surprised if the NASA invitation, if it had been confirmed at all, evaporates. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 12:22:30 [Permalink]
|
Wow. Zahn says, "you should do these measurements, and until you do your talk of 'over-unity' is premature."
Heins replies, in effect, "that's just unqualified opinion" (his bolding).
That's the denial we've come to expect from crackpot physics, and Heins predictably follows up by comparing himself to "Edison, Einstein, Galileo, Tesla, the Wright Brothers and Banting."
Heins is now clearly far too emotionally invested in his device to think rationally about it.
But for the last half-hour, the overunity forums have claimed that they're doing a backup, so I can't read on to page 24. Perhaps he regains his senses. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 12:37:47 [Permalink]
|
| I can't hit the forum right now either, but I think what he said was "unquantified opinion". Either way, it's not the right response given the circumstances. He does indeed seem to be showing the strain of all this, and while his emotional commitment is understandable from a human perspective, it ain't good science. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 12:38:36 [Permalink]
|
And, of course, two minutes after I post the forums come back to life. I meant page 23. On which we find "MainePower" begging and pleading with "Heinstein" to run Zahn's tests, and Heins completely blowing him off. That exchange, if nothing else, justifies a completely cynical view of anything Heins has to offer.
At least until he provides a practical application and evidence that the device can fulfill that application. Anything less than that should be viewed as posturing or hype. Even if he does Zahn's tests now and reports "startling" results, he's reading from the crank playbook now and so can't be trusted.
Nice "hubris" comment, JustMe. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 12:44:59 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JustMe
...but I think what he said was "unquantified opinion". |
Ah, yes, you're right.| Either way, it's not the right response given the circumstances. |
You're right about that, too.| He does indeed seem to be showing the strain of all this, and while his emotional commitment is understandable from a human perspective, it ain't good science. |
The fact is, these "free energy" guys run this like they're reading from a script. The response looks cynical because there's been such a long history of people doing these same things, over and over, and each one thinks he's onto something real. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 14:09:30 [Permalink]
|
It seems to me to boil down to this:
Thane won't do the basic tests that his very best technical adviser suggests. And he evades saying why he won't. Some of the posters are trying their best to humor him into doing the tests, and stop making "overunity" claims until he has evidence for them. But he refuses their advice, too.
This thing's dead in the water unless and until he does these tests, but (if the laws of conservation mean anything) it's likely sunk completely if he does perform them. Which is probably what "Heinstein" is worried about.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 15:28:13 [Permalink]
|
Mr. Just Me.....
I have directed several posts to you which you have declined to answer. That is understandable, as you no doubt are feeling pretty picked on by now.....| Are people on here going to misunderstand me forever, or just until we stop talking about this? |
In your initial post on this forum, you started out with| Oh, it gets better! Wait...I...I...I... can hardly get this out....for all the laughing! I think...I think....I think I'm gonna pee my pants! You know who wants to see it now, pending an abstract of the work done thus far? NASA wants to see it! Oh man, there's a rocket scientist sucker born every minute. |
and | The internet has a long memory Mr. Buck. Healthy (and vital) skepticism does not require pompous ass rudeness. Your self indulgent and self congratulatory tone is dull and distasteful |
I'm sure you agree those words and that tone was challenging, to say the least?
Personally, I love such provocation. So I responded in kind, fully anticipating a grade school level insult exchange that would test the moderators' tolerance for juvenile testosterone displays. But you ran away except for the brilliant "Fuck thank you..." comment.
So I, and others, wrote you off as just another hit and run troll that came here for a fight and got more than you could handle.
However, probably due to your incurably romantic nature, you persisted in championing the Thane saga. Except for some occasional snappishness, your aggressive attitude seemed to soften and I began to see a genuine attempt to communicate with others here, particularly Dave, whom you wisely chose not to insult.
Now, my feelings are deeply hurt by your refusal to acknowledge my obviously incandescent existence; but more important, I truly feel that you could be a valuable member of SFN. First of all, you are genuinely literate. I read most of these posts pretty carefully, and your command of the language is better in detail (grammar, syntax, spelling, etc.) than some, particularly new, members who fail to realize that the bar is pretty high here for there to be appreciation of either talent or intellect. Or attention to detail!
Second, you are quick and resourceful in much of what you write and quite sophisticated for a young man, as most of the young men and women here are. I, and possibly a few others here, appreciate your rather naive, yet appealing, wonderment of things unknown. Much of the pleasure available in this world can be found in the thought and expression of romantics, and you are definitely a romantic.
I do not believe that skepticism, critical thinking, and a Scientifically Methodical approach to ratiocination in general is incompatable with the nature of a visionary, idealist or even a rhapsodist. Carl Sagan comes to mind. Also Leonardo. And I actually agree with you in that there is something to admire in the obsessive efforts of a dreamer like Thane. Every so often in history, an obvious crackpot becomes transformed into a luminary when she achieves success.
But these skeptical folks are right 99% of the time. I wrote yesterday that I would believe in God if He won Randi's prize. So, as is becoming more evident by the day, Thane's Thing demands extremely close scrutiny before anyone should even suggest support for it; a someThing that apparently defies massively established laws of physics.
Just Me (a vaguely autodidactical nom de plume), I suggest a truce. Irrespective of your views of me as a pompous old ass (there is considerable truth therein), I like much of what I have seen of and heard from you and I truly would like to welcome you to SFN.
You remind me of two other members of SFN who see me as a piece of particularly odious merde not worthy of notice or response - H.Humbert and Marfknox. Both of these worthies are bright, incisive in their commentary, sometimes brilliant and well-spoken, and very valuable members of this intellectual community. Egos being what they are, we have not gotten on very well. That is to be expected when many san mai reside in the same kitchen drawer! However, I have a deep respect for both of their contributions to these fora (ostentatious word).
Just Me, I promise not to pick on you, if you will agree to reciprocate. Or vice-versa, if your self-image demands, I care not. Dude and I reached a similar sort of unspoken mutual respect for each other here some time ago, and have gotten along pretty well since! If you are going to stay, I would like to do the same with you!
Cordially (I mean that),
Mr. Bill Buck (bngbuck) |
|
|
|
JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 12:43:59 [Permalink]
|
It's not so much that I'm ignoring you bngbuck, it's that I worry that there are a finite number of syllables in the world and you're using them all up! I figure if I don't acknowledge some of your posts it's like not reading them at all, and the world can go on talking 1,347 years more than it would have otherwise. Please feel free to let me know if you feel there are holes in this theory.
And I'm not feeling picked on, just mildly bewildered from time to time. To time. And I tried really hard to insult Dave! What does one have to do to get banned around here anyway? Jesus.
Now I have no excuse not to finish what I started. Since Mr. Heins has now commenced shooting himself in the foot, I think I'll wait for a few more toes to fly, making the whole argument that much more difficult, and therefore, fun.
This Perepetia stuff is all superfluous anyway. Some guy from Toronto invented the paint roller in 1940, and the world is owed nothing more from Canada. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2008 : 13:05:39 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JustMe
It's not so much that I'm ignoring you bngbuck, it's that I worry that there are a finite number of syllables in the world and you're using them all up! I figure if I don't acknowledge some of your posts it's like not reading them at all, and the world can go on talking 1,347 years more than it would have otherwise. Please feel free to let me know if you feel there are holes in this theory.
And I'm not feeling picked on, just mildly bewildered from time to time. To time. And I tried really hard to insult Dave! What does one have to do to get banned around here anyway? Jesus.
Now I have no excuse not to finish what I started. Since Mr. Heins has now commenced shooting himself in the foot, I think I'll wait for a few more toes to fly, making the whole argument that much more difficult, and therefore, fun.
This Perepetia stuff is all superfluous anyway. Some guy from Toronto invented the paint roller in 1940, and the world is owed nothing more from Canada.
|
So...., our Thane is not a grifter, merely incompetent, then? A pity; he'd be much more interedting as a scoundrel.
If you really want to get banned, a rare event around here, claim to be one of the myriad sock puppets of JEROME DA GNOME. That'll probably do it.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 13:35:31 [Permalink]
|
Wow. Someone asks Heins what kind of motor is in Heins' electric drill (induction, synchronous, DC or universal), and Heins replies, "An electric one." Then almost 12 minutes later posts the manufacturer's info off the drill's label.
In other words, he couldn't answer the question, or even guess. Even if his first response was a joke, his second response was basically "you figure it out." Heins is claiming that he sees this "effect" whether he uses his big induction motor or his electric drill, but he doesn't care one whit about the construction of the drill's motor. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 15:14:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
It seems to me to boil down to this:
Thane won't do the basic tests that his very best technical adviser suggests. And he evades saying why he won't. Some of the posters are trying their best to humor him into doing the tests, and stop making "overunity" claims until he has evidence for them. But he refuses their advice, too.
This thing's dead in the water unless and until he does these tests, but (if the laws of conservation mean anything) it's likely sunk completely if he does perform them. Which is probably what "Heinstein" is worried about.
|
You know, technically, he never said either that he wouldn't do them or hadn't done some form of them already. He implied...something...with "I can do a lot in 30 seconds". He hasn't, directly, said any one device was overunity. I don't think? It's rather muddy.
He stated unequivocally that he feels the effect violates Conservation of Energy principles via Lenz, but has skirted saying the current applications of it produce free energy. So given that, I don't think he needs to produce eureka numbers anyway. Just a sense that he is acting appropriately science-y. Like my son! Who won third place at his school science fair today. Perpetual bread mold.
|
| Edited by - JustMe on 02/21/2008 15:18:29 |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 16:35:21 [Permalink]
|
Just My Sweetheart.....
| It's not so much that I'm ignoring you bngbuck, it's that I worry that there are a finite number of syllables in the world and you're using them all up! |
Well, so much for peace pipes! I'll be glad to rent you a few basic syllables to help your stumbling expression, just ask - or can you work that out with your present vocabulary? | Please feel free to let me know if you feel there are holes in this theory. |
Holes? In a post from you? Please! There are some other holes, however, that you really should tend to soon, ere your bra...oh, never mind, I forgot!| And I'm not feeling picked on, just mildly bewildered from time to time. |
Yeah, we all sure see that bewildered thing! | And I tried really hard to insult Dave! |
Keep trying, Dave loves it! Glad to rent you some insults, too, Just You, it's easy, just a little wit and....oh, I see the problem!| What does one have to do to get banned around here anyway? Jesus. |
Yes, Jesus is a good place to start. Keep on that line of reasoning and you'll get there!| Now I have no excuse not to finish what I started. |
Sure you do. Just tell the truth - you can't remember what it was. Simple insufficient neural circuitry!
| Since Mr. Heins has now commenced shooting himself in the foot, I think I'll wait for a few more toes to fly, making the whole argument that much more difficult, and therefore, fun. |
And it sure bears out your thunderous support of him a few pages back, doesn't it?| and the world is owed nothing more from Canada. |
As the Loonie contiues to digest the Dollar, Canada will shortly own the States and your point will be moot like all the rest of them!
Good night, sweet prince, I'll see you in my dreams!
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 18:30:06 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JustMe
You know, technically, he never said either that he wouldn't do them or hadn't done some form of them already. He implied...something...with "I can do a lot in 30 seconds". He hasn't, directly, said any one device was overunity. I don't think? It's rather muddy.
He stated unequivocally that he feels the effect violates Conservation of Energy principles via Lenz, but has skirted saying the current applications of it produce free energy. So given that, I don't think he needs to produce eureka numbers anyway. Just a sense that he is acting appropriately science-y. Like my son! Who won third place at his school science fair today. Perpetual bread mold. |
The vagueness part I hadn't adsorbed. Of course, if people can't quite pin down one's claims, it's pretty easy to dodge criticisms.
That's much like the technique used by the IDiots, with their amorphous claims of Intelligent Design's supposed predictive abilities.
Dave W. is right on target with his comments about how Thane seems to be following a script. Not only do woos learn tricks from their predecessors, I think there's also only a predictable and limited number of dodges and evasions that are possible when defending the impossible.
I'd like to take a small piece of the credit, along with others here, for persuading you to a critical thinking mindset, JustMe.
But that wouldn't be fair. The fact seems to be that you would have likely arrived there on your own, thanks to Mr. Heins himself and your own innate intelligence. Congrats. (Likewise, I have a Mr. Adamski to thank for making me a UFO skeptic, back in my teenage years, before the Flood.)
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/21/2008 21:18:01 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Super generator? Perpetual motion? Another grift?
