|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2008 : 16:52:18 [Permalink]
|
Bluecollar said:
| Religious people may say there is a contradiction between evolution and their religious sources, but I don't have to believe them. The ten thousand or so Christian clergy who participated in the Clergy Letter Project take issue with such claims, and I do too. |
Oh, I agree that ToE doesn't have to contradict those religions, I'm just saying that any literal (or semi/quasi-literal) interpretation of those religions does have a contradiction there.
You can't be a YEC and accept the ToE. You can't believe the genesis account is anything but poetic metaphor and accept the ToE.
So really, there is a contradiction. Reasonable religious people (if they really exist) get around it by reading genesis as what it is... a bronze age creation myth.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
 |
|
|
jc072
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 09:15:58 [Permalink]
|
Hey guys, thanks a ton for that quick linking tutorial!
I also wanted to add to the comment about the half wing. Richard Dawkins gave a good example of an animal falling from a high place, where 50% of a wing in this case would be better than no wing when it comes to hitting the ground, even if the impact was softened only slightly, which would increase the animal's likelyhood of survival and the gene being passed on. And 60% would soften the blow more than 50%, 70% more than 60%, etc. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 10:50:59 [Permalink]
|
You're welcome jc072.
Also, using a pair of "half a wing" will increase jump height for a creature who is depleting his gound based food and have to stretch/jump to get more food.
It doesn't even have to be falling from a tree. It could be abandon jumping from the tree to escape a predator. A quick "parachute" action will make a great escape when the predator will have to carefully climb down the tree again. And as wing function and wing area increase, the animal don't have to drop down under the tree, but maybe glide a few meters away perhaps even tenths of meters.
Edited spelling and some. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/24/2008 14:06:29 |
|
|
|
andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 19:04:18 [Permalink]
|
| I'm sorry that i haven't been able to blog lately ive been real busy with work. I still am i, just wanted to say that the parachute action would only work if the creatures feathers were already completely evolved. Right?? In archaeopteryxs case they were already fully developed flight feathers. In fact Dr. Alan Feduccia evolutionist and professor at Chapel Hill, NC was quoted as saying “Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur. But it's not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of ‘paleobabble' is going to change that.” He is not in agreement with the currently proposed mechanisms for flight evolution( ground to flight) and I felt that after reading a few of his proposals for arboreal gliding to flight were just as shaky. What do you guys think. Any ways God bless :D |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 19:37:02 [Permalink]
|
Feduccia's arguments don't actually change the status of Archaeopteryx to anything but "transitional." It was a bird. A bird with distinctive features not found in modern birds, but found in theraspid dinosaurs. Feduccia's dispute is with how birds evolved from their non-flying forebears, not whether it happened.
And apparently you haven't played around with model rockets much. A streamer often works just as well as a parachute, because parachute action doesn't depend upon flight, but upon drag, and non-flight feathers would have produced plenty of drag. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:03:52 [Permalink]
|
Imagine an early small, feathered theraspid dinosaur, with a feathery covering used mainly for thermal insulation. Its descendants might increasingly use the feathers on their tails and forelimbs for sexual display and rival intimidation. The length of those feathers would tend to increase over generations, and muscles develop to erect them in display. That same apparatus would be increasingly useful in parachuting for defense, or for pouncing upon prey from a tree.
Eventually, selection would tend to focus increasingly upon perfecting these aerodynamic qualities more and more, as opposed to the display or temperature-regulation qualities. That looks like a plausible beginning of the evolution of flight in bird ancestors.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:18:43 [Permalink]
|
| 'Mooner, your use of "would tend to" causes an otherwise fine description to make it seem like evolution had those features in mind and strove for them, an image that's actually a problem with most peoples' understanding of evolutionary theory. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:19:13 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
'Mooner, your use of "would tend to" causes an otherwise fine description to make it seem like evolution had those features in mind and strove for them, an image that's actually a problem with most peoples' understanding of evolutionary theory.
|
Yeah, I see that, and that was not what I'd intended. But English wasn't "designed" for describing the processes of natural selection. It gets awkward at times to write about this stuff.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/24/2008 21:20:06 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 23:18:26 [Permalink]
|
Andrew, a pattern is emerging here. A very trollish one. You have, once again, refused to address any previous criticism of your older posts, refused to aknowledge your usage error with "theory", and once again moved on to a different subject.
It could be coincidence, but your style is very similar to our old troll Jerome.
So back up, slow down, and actually participate in a discussion or you will likely meet the same fate as that imbecile.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 23:46:08 [Permalink]
|
To be fair, Dude anyone espousing a woo notion is somewhat constrained to a limited number of possible attacks and defenses. Straw man, moving the goalpost, ignoring criticisms, constantly changing the subject ala the Gish Gallop, etc... These are merely tricks of rhetoric, rather than arguments. So the imposed restraint of limited rhetorical options in itself might account for the striking similarity to our late gnome/troll.
There must be factories churning out such thinkers.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/25/2008 03:16:16 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 03:21:09 [Permalink]
|
I did say it could be coincidence. But really, you don't mistake Robb or billscott for Jerome, even if you blank out the names before you read the post.
There is, to me, a similarity in style here (andrew and jerome). One that goes beyond the same old tired tactics and nonsense in the creationist fallacy arsenal.
It is informative, even if he isn't a jerome-puppet, because it may lend some insight into his thinking.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 03:59:39 [Permalink]
|
Good argument, Dude. At the very least, I'd expect them to be marked with close, if not adjacent, serial numbers.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 06:22:26 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by andrew19
He is not in agreement with the currently proposed mechanisms for flight evolution( ground to flight) and I felt that after reading a few of his proposals for arboreal gliding to flight were just as shaky.
|
As has been pointed out by others, more than once, this is still nothing more than an argument from personal incredulity. More of a statement about you rather than an argument against evolution. Tell us why you consider gliding to flight to be shaky. Even today we have examples of animals who glide, lizards and squirrels, not that they will ever fly. But it does illustrate gliding as a survival advantage.
Originally posted by andrew19
Any ways God bless :D
|
There have been a number of criticism of your debate style. I suspect that your debate style is a result of not wanting to deeply challenge your faith. Just keep in mind that all steps, no matter how small, into the light of reality are difficult. However, in the light of reality is where you will find the knowledge and understanding that you claim to desire. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 09:45:09 [Permalink]
|
Andrew's posts share several things in common with Jerome's posts.
1. Poor grammar, spelling, and run-on paragraphs.
2. Constantly shifting topic and refusing to defend a point.
3. Refusing to acknowledge valid criticism in any way.
4. The ending. Andrew's is a smarmy assholish "Anyways God bless", Jerome's was the repeating  .
The consistent inclusion of those style similarities by andrew, even though they are not unique to Jerome, is what leads me to speculate.
There is no doubt in my mind that I could create a suckpuppet that you would be unable to detect. If I can do it, then so can another person.
I'm not yet saying that they are definitely the same person, just noting that they share a consistent and repeating use of those same four style points.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
 |
|
Conservative Christian :D
