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andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 23:01:27 [Permalink]
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Dude that kinda hurts man. First, I am sorry if my grammer is indeed poor and as for my spelling again sorry. Im not perfect. As to the other topics.
2. Constantly shifting topic and refusing to defend a point.
I have said this before. I ask questions to which you guys have provided answers. I'm not really trying to debate on most issues because i realize that you guys will interpret the evidence in the way that makes sense to you. As will I. So after you guys answer questions I bring up another subject to which I have questions.
3. Refusing to acknowledge valid criticism in any way.
How have I not done this. Example: Archaeopteryx, I recanted my statement about its hoax status and apologized for my mistake.
4. The ending. Andrew's is a smarmy assholish "Anyways God bless."
I am NOT trying to be "assholish", I pray for everyone on this website and "God bless" is simply a quick way to let you guys know that I am doing so.
Now i have looked up some articles on the parachuting to powered flight, and they raised some questions as to how gliding provides the development of the muscular and skeletal structure( and organ development) required in all flying creatures we observe today(insects not included)??? I used both answeresingenisis and talkorigins for the articles.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2008 : 04:07:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
Dude that kinda hurts man. |
Truth hurts sometimes.
But like the singer Kate Bush sang:
"without the pain there'd be no learning
Without the hurting we'd never change"
| First, I am sorry if my gramme is indeed poor and as for my spelling again sorry. I'm not perfect. |
None of us are perfect. As for spelling, I myself make use of an Internet Explorer plugin for spell checking, even though without it, I write much better than the average American. And English isn't even my native language. Link to the plugin: http://www.iespell.com
Try it, it's easy to use.
2. Constantly shifting topic and refusing to defend a point.
I have said this before. I ask questions to which you guys have provided answers. I'm not really trying to debate on most issues because i realize that you guys will interpret the evidence in the way that makes sense to you. As will I. |
The point of science is to create an objective description of reality. Which requires removing any biases from the interpretation of the evidence.
But you admit that every piece of evidence you see are subject to your theistic bias before making any conclusion. As long as you do that, you won't come within a mile of science no matter how much you'd like to say you want to know about science (or know about our perspective for that matter).
So after you guys answer questions I bring up another subject to which I have questions. |
Without bothering to check with us if you understood answers we present to you?
3. Refusing to acknowledge valid criticism in any way.
How have I not done this. Example: Archaeopteryx, I recanted my statement about its hoax status and apologized for my mistake. |
Criticism isn't only about pointing out factual errors like that. It's not only about presenting facts that are either right or wrong, black or white, True or False, Good or Evil. These are false dichotomies which are very common among religious people.
A valid criticism is to point out that you seem trapped in this kind of rigid thinking. We want to show you that there is so much more out there, "in reality", than you enable yourself to see.
We are asking for feedback, so that we can better understand where you are coming from. Then we may adjust our responses to you in order to make it easier for you to understand our answers.
4. The ending. Andrew's is a smarmy assholish "Anyways God bless."
I am NOT trying to be "assholish", I pray for everyone on this website and "God bless" is simply a quick way to let you guys know that I am doing so. |
Since most of the members of SFN are non-religious, for us the words "God bless" are meaningless and non-sensical at best. Some of us have had bad experience with Christianity, in which case "God bless" is offensive.
Saying that you're praying for us is just one step away from actually including the prayer in your post. I would refer you to Matt 6:5-6.
It's not like we are telling you that you cannot say God bless, we are respecting your right to say so (as there are no rules on this site against it) also the moderation on this site is rather laid-back with regards to things like expressing yourself. That being said, I hope you can understand why some o |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 05:56:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
2. Constantly shifting topic and refusing to defend a point.
I have said this before. I ask questions to which you guys have provided answers. I'm not really trying to debate on most issues because i realize that you guys will interpret the evidence in the way that makes sense to you. As will I.
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But when your interpretation of the available evidence is different from that of the majority of scientists you need to ask yourself why. Honestly evaluate why you have a different interpretation. Is it due to some personal bias, faith filter? Distortions or reality run rampant religion. The more rigid the thinking the greater the distortion.
Originally posted by andrew19
So after you guys answer questions I bring up another subject to which I have questions.
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Then you are merely skimming the surface without challenging why you have a different interpretation of the available evidence. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 09:35:02 [Permalink]
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andrew said:
| Dude that kinda hurts man. |
I don't say it to be mean. Just pointing it out. The poor grammar/spelling thing is an almost universal trait of religious people's postings on this (and other) forums.
But it is a problem that you can fix with minimal effort. No one, as you say, is perfect. Thats why we have spell check.(the google tool bar has a very useful spellchecker) If you create a post in MS Word, it will even give you some rudimentary assistance with grammar. Adding a paragraph break between different thoughts will also make your posts easier to read.
Language is confusing enough all on its own. So applying some of the basics will help make sure we understand one another.
2. Constantly shifting topic and refusing to defend a point.
I have said this before. I ask questions to which you guys have provided answers. I'm not really trying to debate on most issues because i realize that you guys will interpret the evidence in the way that makes sense to you. As will I. So after you guys answer questions I bring up another subject to which I have questions.
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From over here it looks as if you are just throwing out something new each time your previous assertion gets batted down.
3. Refusing to acknowledge valid criticism in any way.
How have I not done this. Example: Archaeopteryx, I recanted my statement about its hoax status and apologized for my mistake. |
Your continued failure to acknowledge your mistake with regard to the word "theory" is again noted. "Theory" is not synonymous with "hypothesis" or "guess". Read the links I provided you for an explanation of "theory" in this context and admit your error.
4. The ending. Andrew's is a smarmy assholish "Anyways God bless."
I am NOT trying to be "assholish", |
Ending your posts in such a way, when combined with your apparent refusal to engage in discussion, is dismissive.
I used both answeresingenisis and talkorigins for the articles.
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Answers in Genesis is a YEC (young earth creationist) website. They believe that dinosaurs were plant eaters who lived in the garden with adam and eve. That the entire world population is descended from the children of Noah. That the world, and the entire universe, is somewhere between 6000 and 10,000 years old at most.
They have even built a multi-million dollar "museum" (with Disney/Universal Studios style "attractions") to spread the lies.
You should avoid that group, and never present anything from them as any type of legitimate source. You will only earn ridicule if you do.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 10:16:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
I pray for everyone on this website |
That explains the periodic buzzing in my ear.
| and "God bless" is simply a quick way to let you guys know that I am doing so. |
You shouldn't seek to let people know.
EDIT:
| I'm not really trying to debate on most issues because i realize that you guys will interpret the evidence in the way that makes sense to you. As will I. So after you guys answer questions I bring up another subject to which I have questions. |
FYI - the regulars in this Forum really like to debate. More than anything they want to take your interpretation of the evidence and show you all the different ways it's innaccurate and/or illogical. The overall end is to guide you out of the jungle of ignorance but they would be happy enough with the means. Even if you are hoplessly faithful, they'd still debate with you tirelessly until you said 'uncle.' But they quickly become frustrated with a moving target. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/26/2008 10:26:08 |
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andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:08:22 [Permalink]
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So what do you guys want me to talk about???? Debate with you?? As far as previously covered topics. I have no desire to irritate anyone with throwing up argumentative "scapegoats" to avoid "deeply challenging my faith" as I have been accused of doing just that. I understand that you guys want to debate, but my original intention was to learn. To learn what you might ask??? What evolutionists/atheists think what their arguments were and so on. Not how is my faith misplaced because, as previously stated, that will never happen.
I wish I could talk face to face because its much easier to get points across.... or on second thought maybe not. I would probably get punched (:( I'm just kidding. But seriously, pick one of the things I've brought up and we'll debate it.
:) Have a good day and God bless |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 09:19:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
So what do you guys want me to talk about???? Debate with you?? As far as previously covered topics. I have no desire to irritate anyone with throwing up argumentative "scapegoats" to avoid "deeply challenging my faith" as I have been accused of doing just that. I understand that you guys want to debate, but my original intention was to learn. To learn what you might ask??? What evolutionists/atheists think what their arguments were and so on. Not how is my faith misplaced because, as previously stated, that will never happen.
I wish I could talk face to face because its much easier to get points across.... or on second thought maybe not. I would probably get punched (:( I'm just kidding. But seriously, pick one of the things I've brought up and we'll debate it.
:) Have a good day and God bless
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For you, does your Faith trump reproducible observational and experimental evidence? I'm curious because if you actually study biology, geology, cosmology, etc you will be faced with more or less indisputable evidence that evolution is a fact. At that point you will have to choose between what amounts to looking at the blue noon sky and insisting it is red or accepting, at the least, that your Faith in the literal interpretation of biblical genesis (or anything less than evolution secretly guided by god) is false. What will you choose?
Anyway, sounds like what you're doing here is using this community to hone your skills and develop prepared responses for real world debates over science. Getting to know your enemey, so to speak, to become better at fighting him. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/28/2008 11:17:10 |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 16:32:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
So what do you guys want me to talk about???? Debate with you?? As far as previously covered topics. I have no desire to irritate anyone with throwing up argumentative "scapegoats" to avoid "deeply challenging my faith" as I have been accused of doing just that. I understand that you guys want to debate, but my original intention was to learn. To learn what you might ask??? What evolutionists/atheists think what their arguments were and so on. Not how is my faith misplaced because, as previously stated, that will never happen.
I wish I could talk face to face because its much easier to get points across.... or on second thought maybe not. I would probably get punched (:( I'm just kidding. But seriously, pick one of the things I've brought up and we'll debate it.
:) Have a good day and God bless
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Hi Andrew! 
I'm sort of a lurker around here, and not really a "regular" per se. I'm an atheist and a skeptic and a humanist and a feminist and a lot of other things too. I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest and I have a few things to say.
You're young. We were all young once. Being young comes with a lot of things... including curiosity and a certainty that you're right. I think it's admirable that you've come here and you're asking questions. I think the reason you're getting the reactions you are is that it doesn't seem like you're really absorbing the answers you're getting. You said that evolution should be treated as what it is... "just a theory." You were then told that in science, the word "theory" doesn't mean a guess or a hypothesis. It is a comprehensive set of facts that are used to explain phenomena and make predictions. There is also a Theory of Gravity and a Germ Theory of Disease. So, while you may have been told your whole life that evolution is "just a theory," that's a very inaccurate statement. I think it's important that you realize that, first and foremost. Nothing in modern biology makes any sense without evolution. You should also try to understand that evolution is not something that can be "disproven" so to say by pointing out specific, minor problems that you perceive with it. It's an all-encompassing explanation for the way life came to be what it is.
Anyway, just wanted to make those couple of points. Keep searching for answers, and remember that you don't have to stop believing in God just because you accept evolution. Maybe evolution is just God's genius plan!
Have a great day. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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BlueCollarScientist
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 00:30:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
I understand that you guys want to debate, but my original intention was to learn. |
Well, I have no particular desire to debate; I find it distasteful and I'm not good at it. I feel as though I've contributed some really good information to your thread, information which can be easily confirmed and followed up on so you can learn more.
Despite this, I have not gotten the impression you wanted to learn anything and that's discouraged me from contributing further. Any information I (or others) offer is generally ignored; you turn away from it and introduce some new topic without further comment on what's been said before. That's extremely rude and disrespectful, and not indicative of a desire to create a learning environment, where I'd expect to have more give and take and acknowledgment of mutual understanding.
| Not how is my faith misplaced because, as previously stated, that will never happen. |
I really couldn't care less about your faith and have no desire to talk you out of it. I sometimes wonder why the antiscience hatred that you and others express is so linked in your minds to your religious beliefs, but I've survived without having my curiosity assuaged before. |
http://bluecollarscientist.com/ |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/29/2008 : 05:31:27 [Permalink]
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"The more the fruits of knowledge become accessible to men, the more widespread is the decline of religious belief." ~~ Sigmund Freud, The Future of an Illusion (1927)
Is this not so?
Well, no. I'm afraid that it is not. Sorry 'bout that, Sig.
The "fruits of knowledge" seem to have quite the opposite effect in that charismatic and despicable preachers of ridged conformity (& outright hate) in the form of obedience to their particular version of some deranged spirit or other flourish by railing against any and all knowledge that doesn't support their grasping upon the hearts & minds, as well as the physical property, of their congregations. Said congregations are expanding, indeed, expanding enough that disgraced scumbags such as Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker have managed modest come-backs. I would expect Kent Hovind to do the same.
I recall seeing photos of apparently affluent and therefore probably well-enough educated persons groveling on their bellies like idiots before Roy's Rock, not long before the wretched thing away was hauled away.
Doesn't their Bible have something to say about these sorts of shenanigans? Worshiping graven images & all that lot?
Pretty pathetic and not a little disgusting to behold.
At any rate Andrew, you've stated a fair number of times that you are here to learn, so I must ask: would more knowledge encourage you to think more critically or will you remain bound to your figurative Roy's Rock like a limpet?
And I haven't noticed you pursuing knowledge in any other threads, correct me if I'm wrong. There is a great deal of information floating around in here beyond merely this discussion.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 07:04:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
The "fruits of knowledge" seem to have quite the opposite effect in that charismatic and despicable preachers of ridged conformity (& outright hate) in the form of obedience to their particular version of some deranged spirit or other flourish by railing against any and all knowledge that doesn't support their grasping upon the hearts & minds, as well as the physical property, of their congregations. Said congregations are expanding, indeed, expanding enough that disgraced scumbags such as Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker have managed modest come-backs. I would expect Kent Hovind to do the same.
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IMHO humanity is not nearly as free-thinking, or even sentient, as we like to think. We have a very convincing illusion of freedom to make decions and of open-mindedness, but we're fairly rigidly fixed in a cultural framework. You'll know when you're making real decisions, as opposed to following lockstep in your cultural comfort zone, because they take a long time to make and they cause anxiety. |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 08:23:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by filthy
The "fruits of knowledge" seem to have quite the opposite effect in that charismatic and despicable preachers of ridged conformity (& outright hate) in the form of obedience to their particular version of some deranged spirit or other flourish by railing against any and all knowledge that doesn't support their grasping upon the hearts & minds, as well as the physical property, of their congregations. Said congregations are expanding, indeed, expanding enough that disgraced scumbags such as Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker have managed modest come-backs. I would expect Kent Hovind to do the same.
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IMHO humanity is not nearly as free-thinking, or even sentient, as we like to think. We have a very convincing illusion of freedom to make decions and of open-mindedness, but we're fairly rigidly fixed in a cultural framework. You'll know when you're making real decisions, as opposed to following lockstep in your cultural comfort zone, because they take a long time to make and they cause anxiety.
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Agree. I think that it is the 'heard instinct' shared by all social species and even those such as I are not completely immune. We all want to fit into whatever group we are among. But history tells us that to make any progress at all, we, some of us at least, must break free. And often that can be risky if not altogether dangerous.
To me, the terms 'Heretic' and 'Iconiclast' are badges of honor.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 08:51:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by filthy
The "fruits of knowledge" seem to have quite the opposite effect in that charismatic and despicable preachers of ridged conformity (& outright hate) in the form of obedience to their particular version of some deranged spirit or other flourish by railing against any and all knowledge that doesn't support their grasping upon the hearts & minds, as well as the physical property, of their congregations. Said congregations are expanding, indeed, expanding enough that disgraced scumbags such as Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker have managed modest come-backs. I would expect Kent Hovind to do the same.
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IMHO humanity is not nearly as free-thinking, or even sentient, as we like to think. We have a very convincing illusion of freedom to make decions and of open-mindedness, but we're fairly rigidly fixed in a cultural framework. You'll know when you're making real decisions, as opposed to following lockstep in your cultural comfort zone, because they take a long time to make and they cause anxiety.
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Agree. I think that it is the 'heard instinct' shared by all social species and even those such as I are not completely immune. We all want to fit into whatever group we are among. But history tells us that to make any progress at all, we, some of us at least, must break free. And often that can be risky if not altogether dangerous.
To me, the terms 'Heretic' and 'Iconiclast' are badges of honor.
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Risky? I'll say. Look what happened to Jesus. (Just trying to circle back around on topic...  ) He was a heretic and iconoclast before he was a martyr and became an avatar of god. And then through the grace of universal irony, in protecting the fruits of his legacy, the religous powers have persecuted so many iconoclasts and heretics... |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/29/2008 08:54:52 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2008 : 09:09:00 [Permalink]
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| And then through the grace of universal irony, in protecting the fruits of his legacy, the religous powers have persecuted so many iconoclasts and heretics... |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Conservative Christian :D
