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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2008 : 07:17:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
If he wants what we all want, he should do what he does best and that is not running futile and even laughable campaigns for high office. Rather he should be trying to influence and perhaps advise the candidate that most closely fits progressive viewpoints. He is not doing that by indulging in cyclic, political masturbation.
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Well, he went to Obama, and Obama laughed at him, because Obama knows he doesn't work for us, he works for the wealthy.
The only reason that Nader is irrelevant, is because people who agree with him don't vote for him. They'd rather vote for people who do nothing for them at all, and in fact, only make their lives worse because they don't want to be seen as unsophisicated. They want to listen to what wealthy pundits like Alterman tell them about what's happening, rather than look at what's happening.
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Then if/when Obama is elected, or Clinton, he must use the influence, that he is currently losing at an appalling rate, to sway them. That's where the real fight is, not in running some half-assed campaign for prez that he & we all know will be about as successful as as Thane's Thingamabob. As soon as he began to contemplate his candidacy, he started spinning his wheels and decreasing his once-considerable value to society with every turn.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/25/2008 07:20:18 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 07:28:53 [Permalink]
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As soon as he began to contemplate his candidacy, he started spinning his wheels and decreasing his once-considerable value to society with every turn.
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As long as people keep voting for the lesser of two evils as the wealthy pundits tell them to, their lives will be irrelevant. Sway Obama and Clinton? How? The people are irrelevant. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 07:49:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
As soon as he began to contemplate his candidacy, he started spinning his wheels and decreasing his once-considerable value to society with every turn.
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As long as people keep voting for the lesser of two evils as the wealthy pundits tell them to, their lives will be irrelevant. Sway Obama and Clinton? How? The people are irrelevant.
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Historically, Gorgo, the people have always been irrevelent, everywhere. Nader once made some small difference, but I don't think he ever will again. Not the way he's currently going about it.
Anyway, historically, the biggest differences have always been made with the stone, the spear, the arrow, and the rifle. For good or ill.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 07:53:07 [Permalink]
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Anyway, historically, the biggest differences have always been made with the stone, the spear, the arrow, and the rifle. For good or ill.
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Usually all that causes is a bunch of fires and deaths. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 08:28:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
[quote]Originally posted by Gorgo
[quote] As soon as he began to contemplate his candidacy, he started spinning his wheels and decreasing his once-considerable value to society with every turn.
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No, again, it makes no sense for him to talk to the politicians, except as a candidate. Running as a candidate enables him to talk to the people.
Since you've agreed that the people are irrelevant, then you know it makes no sense to keep voting for the same people. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 09:24:44 [Permalink]
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Soo.... the two people in this thread who are so vehemently denying that Nader is a collosal asshole VOTED for him in 2000!
Stop and ponder that.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:02:04 [Permalink]
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| Once again, I refer people to the Scheer-Nader debate and the movie "An Unreasonable Man." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:09:16 [Permalink]
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Gorgo said:
You have more respect for the people who voted for the conintued destruction of Iraq, Yugoslavia and the working class in the U.S. and Mexico. You have more respect for the people that made sure single-payer health care would be off the table for decades.
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Now you are projecting. Not exactly the best way to proceed in a discussion of politics here Gorgo. But hey, we already know you are incapable of critical thought when it comes to these topics.
Just to clarify:
I did not like Gore in 2000. Only since he has left politics (mostly) and become an environmental activist has he earned my respect. I would not have voted for him in 2000 if I didn't despise the Bush Klan even more.
I did not like Bill Clinton much during his presidency either. He signed NAFTA, bombed Iraq, and did a bunch of other despicable shit. I became sympathetic to him only after the scumbag holier-than-thou republican congress impeached him for fucking the fat chick. Tens of millions of dollars, thousands of FBI man hours, and the only thing Ken Star could find on Clinton was that he lied about boning some woman, and the republicans decided to impeach him? WTF. Only at that time did I become openly supportive of Bill Clinton.
The candidate I liked best this year was Dennis Kucinich.(Biden a close second) An open supporter of impeachment for Cheney/Bush, an open supporter of a single payer healthcare system, etc.
So please, feel free to apologize and retract you assholish comment.
None of that changes the simple bottom line. Nader is a huge asshole for injecting himself into the presidential campaign.
You want the "illegal" war in Iraq to end?
You want some steps taken towards a single payer healthcare system?
You want the US to stop using military power around the globe to get our way?
Well, guess what Gorgo. If Nader runs ALL of that is less likely to happen. The consequences of Nader's actions are ONLY going to make it more likely that "100 years in Iraq" McCain gets elected.
Changing politics at the national level is not so easy. Nader has no hope of doing it, no hope of being taken seriously by anyone buy a few fringe morons now, and less than no chance to win.
The only way we are going to get ourselves out of the mess we are in, with our obviously broken "two party" system, is to change election laws at the state and local level.
Until that happens, your votes for a candidate you really really like, but who has no chance of winning, only help the people you are the most opposed to win.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:13:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Gorgo said:
You have more respect for the people who voted for the conintued destruction of Iraq, Yugoslavia and the working class in the U.S. and Mexico. You have more respect for the people that made sure single-payer health care would be off the table for decades.
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Now you are projecting. Not exactly the best way to proceed in a discussion of politics here Gorgo. But hey, we already know you are incapable of critical thought when it comes to these topics.
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Well, you can see that I pulled those comments before your reply. Not because they're not true, but because it does me no good to try to reason with you. Everyone that disagrees with you is an asshole and a douchebag, and I'm sorry that I doubted you. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/25/2008 10:14:24 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:16:40 [Permalink]
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| As long as you validate a corrupt system with your vote, you are legitimizing and agreeing with these crimes against humanity. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:21:52 [Permalink]
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As long as you fail to comprehend the pragmatic reasons to vote, you continue to aid the propagation of the most extreme form of those crimes Gorgo.
The consequences of your actions, not your intent, are what matters.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:30:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
As long as you fail to comprehend the pragmatic reasons to vote, you continue to aid the propagation of the most extreme form of those crimes Gorgo.
The consequences of your actions, not your intent, are what matters.
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The consequences of voting for con men is being swindled. The lesser of two evils is still evil. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:52:23 [Permalink]
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None of that changes the simple bottom line. Nader is a huge asshole for injecting himself into the presidential campaign.
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Meaningless sentence. You have a problem with Nader for disagreeing with your right-wing candidates. You think Nader has some responsibility to make sure your right-wing candidates win.
Please explain why. Please explain why I would want to care more about the wealthy pundits and democratic leaders who would demonize honest people like Nader than I would care about this country. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 12:00:58 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
You are a dreamer, an idealist, not a political realist.
Nader does not have the probability of being elected president that Dave has of becoming the Pope, and yet you champion his cause. Dude is right, Nader caused the defeat of Al Gore in 2000, and look what we've had for eight years! Is the idealistic daydreaming of a presidency for Nader, or Bloomberg, or any other impossible-to-elect Third Party candidate worth even the slightest chance of continuing this Bush nightmare into four or eight more years?
The Democrats are, by and large, a bunch of bumbling idiots awash in their own brand of political self-service. Nader might very well be a better choice for president than either Obama or Hillary. I don't know and don't care. HE CAN'T BE ELECTED!
At this point in the campaigns for the '08 election, either John McCain, Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton is going to be our next president. Period. Whether you, or I, or anyone likes it or not! If you do not care for any of those three and see no essential difference between a McCain Republican
presidency and a Obama or Hillary Democratic presidency, then for Christ's sake (or any other fucking god you may fancy) DON'T VOTE!
Because a vote for Nader is a vote for McCain and does not express your political intent.
If the aforementioned Christ himself were to appear (unlikely) as a third party candidate, but somehow failed to gain any political support (unlikely), it would be a huge mistake to vote for him rather than the Republican or the Democrat on the ballot, if you had any preference for either of the other two.
I cannot understand the logical thinking processes of anyone, other than big money "fat-cat"s and religious "fundies", (and, here in Idaho, rural "huntin' fools"- also fundies); who cannot see and loath the policies of George Bush and the Cheney Neocons. And the slavish obedience of the Congress to the whipping of the Tom DeLays and the other Republican ideologues that has taken place.. We have to get something, anything, better than that!
I cannot believe that John McCain and a Republican dominated Congress will give us any appreciable relief from the fascistic totalitarian trends in government that the Bush neocons and their party hack followers in the Congress have provided the past eight years. The Democrats are a far, far cry from a thinking person's ideal political party, but still far, far superior to the Republicans, the Fundies, the Neocons, and the Bushies.
So I don't understand your advocacy of Nader, if it extends to an intention to vote for the man. Why not just vote for McCain, who has at least a chance of getting elected? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2008 : 12:02:18 [Permalink]
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Here's something of interest from the Democratic Underground's weekly Top Ten Conservative Idiots: After chopping chunks out of McCain, we find at Idiot #6.... Ralph Nader
Biggest Ego
With the president's approval rating at an all time low (more on that later), the vast majority of Americans unhappy with the direction the country is headed, ongoing occupations sucking billions out of the pockets of the taxpayer, the Republican party rocked by scandal after scandal and dissatisfied with their corrupt presidential nominee, leave it to Ralph Nader to declare last week that, "If the Democrats can't landslide the election this year, they ought to just wrap up, close down."
Apparently Ralph is under the impression that taking back the country is going to be too easy this year, so he's decided to handicap things a little by jumping into the presidential race. Again. |
It goes along in this vein with some interesting quotes, then ends: So let me get this "Nader plan" straight:
2000
Run for president
Tell everybody that there's no difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush
Reveal that it would be better if Bush wins because then the parties will "diverge from one another"
Sit back and watch Bush spend eight years shredding the Constitution, voiding decades-old international treaties, illegally invading other countries, wiretapping American citizens without a warrant, politicizing the Department of Justice, appointing radical conservative Supreme Court justices, whipping the religious right into an apocalyptic frenzy, sinking the economy into recession, robbing working Americans to pay for generous tax cuts for millionaires and generally destroying America's reputation around the world
2008
Run for president
Tell everybody that there's no difference between Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton and John McCain
Gee, I wonder what comes next? Let me guess - reveal that it would be better if McCain wins because then the parties will "diverge from one another."
Jerk. |
I don't know why they skipped 2004, but Ralph made the list a couple more times farther along.
Now Gorgo, I didn't write that, merely passed it along, so don't let your blood pressure numbers exceed any AHRA top 1/4 mile speeds. But I must admit that it did give me an evil chuckle.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ralph Nader...
