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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:12:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Actually I did acknowledged it, Dave but as I had stated before that only changes the brain wave patterns... |
No, you didn't. You said:Let me give you guys a simple thing to be psychic is to be aware of the world around you without using the standard 5 sences that we all are born with. In order to develop your 6th sense the best way to get there would be to meditate. | ...have you ever done any kind of energy work? |
Yes, I have.
You also wrote:| ...in its principle its just energy not physical reality... |
Energy is a part of physical reality. Saying "physical reality is an illusion" is the same as saying "energy is an illusion," so falling back on matter/energy equivalence doesn't actually explain what you meant by "physical reality is an illusion." Unless, of course, you are denying that energy is a part of physical reality, in which case you should be arguing that Einstein was wrong with E=mc2.| ...as Dave said its the "observer" that we must understand better. |
"We" understand the observer just fine. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:18:47 [Permalink]
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Yes that was a question if you have done 2 months of meditation to see where that would get you and yes you have said that you have meditated for years but then I asked if you have done any energy work? When I asked you about psipog and anything else about PK you come and say its parlor tricks well try doing those "parlor tricks" see where that gets you. Evidently the evidence that I have shown you guys isnt enough well how about testing it for yourselves but really giving those things a chance. So I ask you if you have tried it but really trying not just watching a Jedi movie and tried to move a chair once and saying oh this is crap thats not really a chance. Until then I dont think it being wise calling it parlor tricks because that is self evident that that person is being closed minded, and jumping to assumtion and all those things.
Which question that you ask that did I missed, Dave?
I have also noticed that you really are trying to scrutiize me forum could be my evidence on your physical plane that any post that I have put up you came back and scrutinized it dont say I think that way its right there on the internet. Is there in page 1, 2, 3, and this one as well if thats not evidence of you scruitinzing me then I dont know what is. But if its so that you understand me better thats cool but if not then well thats in your court...
Dave I never said that energy isnt apart of physical reality... *sigh* here we go again well. I say that energy creates reality not reality created energy and you said it yourself that energy is the first thing on that principle itself it is possible for the paranormal, or the world of the quantum which are more comfortable words for you guys.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:29:05 [Permalink]
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But the scientific stretch of field only goes so far... an example would be that you are trying to show that a circle is round by using the color red. Doesnt really make sense, and by thinking its a waste of time and not choosing to go into the subject because you think it 'is' a waste of time is ignorance of choice.
The other dimensions that I am refering to are not mathematical but occult like the famous astral plane.
Thats the Freedom of Will vs Destiny question and you choose to say its will, but that answer doesnt match the question... heck here let me give you a hint... evolution.
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Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:36:44 [Permalink]
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Dave what kind of energy work did you do? Very curious did you sense anything, how long have you done it, are you still doing it? Did you try moving objects have you tried the psi-wheel its very simple.
You misinterpreted my words Dave, in principle meaning at its basic form matter is energy. That should clear things up ;)
May I ask you what have you understood of the "observer" then?
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:59:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Yes that was a question if you have done 2 months of meditation to see where that would get you and yes you have said that you have meditated for years but then I asked if you have done any energy work? When I asked you about psipog and anything else about PK you come and say its parlor tricks well try doing those "parlor tricks" see where that gets you. Evidently the evidence that I have shown you guys isnt enough well how about testing it for yourselves but really giving those things a chance. So I ask you if you have tried it but really trying not just watching a Jedi movie and tried to move a chair once and saying oh this is crap thats not really a chance. Until then I dont think it being wise calling it parlor tricks because that is self evident that that person is being closed minded, and jumping to assumtion and all those things. |
There you go again.
When are you going to realize that some of us have been right where you are now? We've lived it. Hell, I didn't just try the things you've been talking about, I was convinced that I could do them.
And the video from Russia shows parlor tricks in more ways than one. Back in my day, moving small objects around on a table would have been pathetic. I could control the weather, talk with trees and even (to some extent) exert mind control. A friend of mine stopped a moving car. Don't come to me with a grainy video of a stuttering salt shaker and expect me to be impressed. Besides, I know how those tricks are done, and none of them involve any psi powers.| I have also noticed that you really are trying to scrutiize me forum could be my evidence on your physical plane that any post that I have put up you came back and scrutinized it dont say I think that way its right there on the internet. Is there in page 1, 2, 3, and this one as well if thats not evidence of you scruitinzing me then I dont know what is. |
Apparently, what you call having an intellectual conversation when you're talking about yourself you call scrutinizing when you're talking about someone else. Go figure.| Dave I never said that energy isnt apart of physical reality... *sigh* here we go again well. I say that energy creates reality not reality created energy... |
No, you said that physical reality is an illusion and you tried (several times) to support that claim by pointing to matter/energy equivalence as if that proves that anything is illusory.| ...and you said it yourself that energy is the first thing on that principle itself it is possible for the paranormal, or the world of the quantum which are more comfortable words for you guys. |
What does our universe starting out all energy have to do with the paranormal?| But the scientific stretch of field only goes so far... an example would be that you are trying to show that a circle is round by using the color red. Doesnt really make sense, and by thinking its a waste of time and not choosing to go into the subject because you think it 'is' a waste of time is ignorance of choice. |
Again, that's not what you said.| The other dimensions that I am refering to are not mathematical but occult like the famous astral plane. |
That still doesn't tell me enough to talk to you about whichever other dimensions you've been talking about. To you, is "other dimension" a synonym for "other reality?"| Thats the Freedom of Will vs Destiny question and you choose to say its will, but that answer doesnt match the question... heck here let me give you a hint... evolution. |
 "Freedom of Will vs Destiny question?" Oh, holy cow! You were perhaps expecting me to say that there is no meaning to life because we're all just bags of chemical interactions and besides, the universe's heat death is a mere 100 trillion years from now so none of this means anything, anyway?
My answer matched your question perfectly. There is no single meaning of life, and so "what is the meaning of life" is a trick question. How does evolution tie in with a sophomoric philosophy trap, anyway?| Dave what kind of energy work did you do? Very curious did you sense anything, how long have you done it, are you still doing it? Did you try moving objects have you tried the psi-wheel its very simple. |
Aside from my answer above, all I can say is that the Psi Wheel is for amateurs and con artists.| You misinterpreted my words Dave, in principle meaning at its basic form matter is energy. That should clear things up ;) |
How does that "clear up" your statement that physical reality is an illusion when both you and I know that physical reality isn't just matter?| May I ask you what have you understood of the "observer" then? |
I thought I already said: any particle can be an "observer," it all depends upon what's being "observed." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:59:59 [Permalink]
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Wow. Nightwolf, energy is still part of physical reality. Energy is not a synonym for magic.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 22:08:12 [Permalink]
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I never said it wasnt Humbert.
Well magic could be used as the original name for energy though... also Science and any other kind is the child from Alchemy but science is finally relearning some of what alchemy knew all along via the new age science known as Quantum ;D
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 22:38:03 [Permalink]
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nightwolf said:
| I have also noticed that you really are trying to scrutiize me forum could be my evidence on your physical plane that any post that I have put up you came back and scrutinized it dont say I think that way its right there on the internet. |
Put the bong away before you post! You are getting more and more incoherent as time goes by here.
Please, excercise some of the basic grammar skills you must have learned in school. If you keep posting garbage like the above example, no one knows what the hell you are trying to say.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 22:57:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
I never said it wasnt Humbert.
Well magic could be used as the original name for energy though... also Science and any other kind is the child from Alchemy but science is finally relearning some of what alchemy knew all along via the new age science known as Quantum ;D
Peace,
Nightwolf
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You're kidding, right?
There is no "new age science". There is only pseudoscience, often promoted by the new age, and science.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 23:30:15 [Permalink]
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When I said new age I was making a joke about quantum because its new reletivley to the other sciences it started in 1926. But the other stuff that is known as New Age as been around for a very very long time.
But Alchemy is the father of science. Read about it if you'd care too :)
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 06:51:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
I never said I had Black-and-White views I was only posting a different idea think of it not as a view but more of a what-if. Apparently some of the skeptic friends network cant handle that, thankfully I dont live in the middle ages where it would have been a burning at the stake or a hanging... or I dont know what else but that what people did back then when they got offended. |
If you're not communicating Black-or-White views, then you should reexamine your communication skills, because Black-or-White is what is being posted form you.
Grammar and spelling isn't improving your case either, I have intermediate problems parsing what you are writing. And that's not because I'm poor in English.
If you have a good word-processor with spell check and basic grammar control, please run your post through it before posting. It would be helpful to us.
| Well Dave it shows that you cant find your calm remember |
Dave is calm.
| I wasnt trying to be insulting or offensive even arrogant was one of the things I wasnt trying to ask you a question but you believe that I am being arrogant I am a bit skeptical on that please give me the scientific evidence to back that one up. |
(this is an example of a sentence I would like you to put through the grammar check)
Even if you weren't actively trying to be insulting, or offensive, or arrogant, you come through as such because of your ignorance and lack of effort to understand what Dave had been writing to you. He has already given you several tips on flaws in you writing that makes you appear to us as he describes.
| Even you Dave but you seem to have taken it as you duty to scruitize every letter I write, its fine with me though. Scruitize away, I learn more about you that way. |
Just because Dave have answered all your letters doesn't mean others aren't "scrutinising every letter" your write. It could just as well be that once other's have finished scrutinising your posts, Dave have already posted his reply. I could just as well write "Yeah, what Dave just said...".
Keep in mind that if Dave would make a blatant error in his sceptical analysis of your post, rest assured that someone else on the board will speak up and point it out to him.
| Oh and Dave you still havent answer those question you basically called me closed me closed minded and arrogant. |
Maybe you should examine the reasons he called you close minded and arrogant, and rephrase your question accordingly...
| Kil did you notice my second posting after that? Even Einstine knew that matter and energy were interchangable, the illusion is that most people keep on believing is that the physical reality is the only reality that exist. |
When did "most people" become science?
There is only one reality. The fact that humans cannot perceive the electron orbiting the atom, or follow the movements of individual molecules doesn't make the world we see an illusion. I just make our perception of the reality incomplete because of our flawed senses.
Edited to fix formatting, and a spelling error the spell-checker didn't catch. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 03/16/2008 07:18:14 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2008 : 07:00:04 [Permalink]
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I have recently researched and written a very long, in depth, and downright pedantic in spots, essay on Alchemy to be published elsewhere as a part of another, much larger work by another author. Whaddya wanna know -- I got that fucker wired!
Ok, I might as well be the one to finally say it: Science, by it's very nature, cannot deal with the paranormal. The paranormal, by it's very nature, cannot be observed, tested nor experimented upon, therefore it is outside the purview of science. If it could observed, tested and experimented upon, then it wouldn't be paranormal, would it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 09:10:17 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf
But Alchemy is the father of science. Read about it if you'd care too. |
So I did. I think, if you are going to be with us for a while, it's time for you to start directing us to your sources. The only sources I found that support your contention comes from new age sites. And while it's true that some scientific discoveries were made by alchemists, for the most part the alchemists didn't care about them. It took the scientists to really understand the significance of what was discoverd.
Anyhow, I found this. You might want to look it over Nightwolf.
Excerpts from Alchemy and Science by Lucia K. B. Hall:
…Somewhat to my surprise, I discovered that chemistry did not arise from alchemy so much as exist all along separate from it, and that the two are quite disimilar in both their philosophies and their goals. Science is, in a very important sense, fundamentally orthogonal to alchemy, very much in the same way that it is orthogonal also to religion. There is no real way to "get to" science from alchemy. Alchemy is, in fact, a pesudoscience, all form without function, shape without substance, sizzle without steak, and, as such, has little to do with science per se…
H. Differences Between Alchemy and Science
But the purpose of science is and always was separate from the purpose of alchemy. From the beginning alchemy was a search for the mystical correspondences between the material and the immaterial, and was qualitative, rather than quantative, in nature; from the beginning science was based on the atomism of the Greeks, which was quantitative, rather than qualitative, in nature. (The atomists believed that change was simply the result of the number or arrangement of atoms, not an alteration of the atoms themselves). Science does not look at the elements of the natural world as symbols or allegories of another reality, as alchemy does, but as things in themselves. The purpose of science has always been understanding the physical world, not trying to use it as a metaphor for the next.
But the final proof that science and alchemy are fundamentally different, and that, indeed, science could not had "come" from alchemy, is that alchemists, past and current, deride science for its "limited" view of the universe. You know, the same old tired refrain of all pseudoscience: by limiting itself to "just" the material world, science is missing the the real, important question of... fill in the blank. In the case of alchemy, sciense is here derided for not being concerned with how man is "really" related to the cosmos. That science has come up with a whole plethora of material connections between man and the cosmos (a poetic example being that of the late Carl Sagan's declaration that "we are made of star stuff") simply isn't enough. Chemistry has, according to the alchemists, "abandoned" the central purpose of "the Art" of alchemy, that is, discovering the mystical relation of man to the cosmos. Alchemy is not a material chemistry, but a vital one "which, by fermenting the human spirit, purifies and finally dissolves it" in the words of the 19th century spiritual alchemist Mary Anne Atwood (as quoted in the Britannica). Science has had the effrontery to prove alchemy wrong, at least in the physical realm; but, of course, that just proves that alchemy is correct in the metaphysical, right?
I. Conclusions
So where does this leave me? In the same place as always -- I have no real idea how I made the jump from mysticism to science, or how to get anyone else to make the jump. I can't help it if people don't like the answers that (yuck, ptooey) materialistic science gives them. I can't help it if science is "too limited" for them, that the univer |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 12:41:46 [Permalink]
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Here's a somewhat New Age summery on it. It's a good starting point for serious research. From my notes & references:
Alchemy is an ancient path of spiritual purification and transformation; the expansion of consciousness and the development of insight and intuition through images. Alchemy is steeped in mysticism and mystery. It presents to the initiate a system of eternal, dreamlike, esoteric symbols that have the power to alter consciousness and connect the human soul to the Divine.
Alchemy is part of the mystical and mystery traditions of both East and West. In the West, it dates to ancient Egypt, where adepts first developed it as an early form of chemistry and metallurgy. Egyptians alchemists used their art to make alloys, dyes, perfumes and cosmetic jewelry, and to embalm the dead.
The early Arabs made significant contributions to alchemy, such as by emphasizing the mysticism of numbers (quantities and lengths of time for processes). The Arabs also gave us the term 'alchemy', from the Arabic term 'alchemia', which loosely translated means 'the Egyptian art'.
During medieval and Renaissance times, alchemy spread through the Western world, and was further developed by Kabbalists, Rosicrucians, astrologers and other occultists. It functioned on two levels: mundane and spiritual. On a mundane level, alchemists sought to find a physical process to convert base metals such as lead into gold. On a spiritual level, alchemists worked to purify themselves by eliminating the "base" material of the self and achieving the 'gold' of enlightenment.
By Renaissance times, many alchemists believed that the spiritual purification was necessary in order to achieve the mundane transformations of metals.
The alchemists relied heavily upon their dreams, inspirations and visions for guidance in perfecting their art. In order to protect their secrets, they recorded diaries filled with mysterious symbols rather than text. These symbols remain exceptionally potent for changing states of consciousness.
Thus, alchemists, due to their reliance on and pursuit of superstition/religion were not scientists. This is not to say that they didn't make valuable contributions to their times and indeed, ours, but alchemy is not a science nor ever was.
If you want to have a little enlightening fun, research some individual alchemists such as this one. He nicely shows the slow & staggering progression from superstitious nonsense to a tentative melding with fledgling science. Unfortunately, the art of alchemy has never been able to divorce itself from that superstitious nonsense and thus became irrelevant a long time ago.
And who was the first, actual scientist? That can never be known because that genius was not even of our species. He was an ancient, beetle-browed fellow who figured out that if he took a up cobble and smashed it against another, he had a good chance of getting a stone with a rough, cutting edge. From there, it was a matter of knowing the best sorts of stone, learning to knap them, and, way down the road, creating and opening Chicago Cutlery. And science continues beyond alchemy's failure.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Psychic Update: not so psychic
