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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/01/2009 : 04:44:09
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I'm sure the entire world is familiar with this creepy, not to come right out and say: disgusting story. I told you there was something not-quite-right about this story. Reader Raine sent me the following update from CBS:
CBS News has learned that the family of the octuplets born this week outside Los Angeles filed for bankruptcy and abandoned a home a little over a year-and-a-half ago.
Early Show national correspondent Hattie Kauffman says the mother is in her mid-thirties and lives with her parents.
There's been no mention of the octuplets' father, Kauffman observes. |
As we remember, these eight are on top of the six she already had going into it. But there seems to be a new development: THE single mother of octuplets born in California last week is seeking $2m (£1.37m) from media interviews and commercial sponsorship to help pay the cost of raising the children.
Nadya Suleman, 33, plans a career as a television childcare expert after it emerged last week that she already had six children before giving birth on Monday. She now has 14 below the age of eight...
Her earning power, though, could be diminished by a growing ethical and medical controversy....
US public reaction has been mixed: many have asked how an unemployed single mother can raise 14 children, as her first six have already strained the family budget....
Nadya Suleman, who describes herself as a “professional student” living off education grants and parental money, broke up with her boyfriend before the birth of her first child seven years ago. |
I dunno, not being a social scientist, but it seems to me that some sort of regulation should be had for this sort on thing. The woman is obviously delusional.
I feel rather sad for her children; what sort of childhood will they have even if she does manage to pry large dollars out of, mainly, the media?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 05:09:27 [Permalink]
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There will always be crazy and/or opportunistic people like that woman, and children will suffer. What should be regulated is the ethics of doctors allowing them to get fertility treatments for having huge litters of potential sufferers. She couldn't have done this without a doctor's help. Seems any ethical doctor would have simply told her that the six she had were more than enough, and then refuse to treat her.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 06:10:21 [Permalink]
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets
LOS ANGELES – The woman who gave birth to octuplets this week conceived all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilization, is not married and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager, her mother said.
Angela Suleman told The Associated Press she was not supportive when her daughter, Nadya Suleman, decided to have more embryos implanted last year.
"It can't go on any longer," she said in a phone interview Friday. "She's got six children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 07:13:25 [Permalink]
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Yeah; that's crazy.
Crazy too is that it all seems some part of a plan to get herself famous and get hired as an 'education expert' with her only qualification being to have produced a lot of offspring. Even sadder, it might very well work (although, the single mother bit might rebuke several networks).
It's like we discussed earlier, the anti-intellectualism lead to a death of expertise. So we get Joe the plumber as a journalist and we might get Nadya Suleman as an education expert. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
 Posted - 02/01/2009 : 09:24:36 [Permalink]
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| Seems any ethical doctor would have simply told her that the six she had were more than enough, and then refuse to treat her. |
The doctor wouldn't have known about the six prior kids, unless the woman told him/her, or the doctor had prior records. (There would be signs on physical exam of prior pregnancy & delivery, either vaginal delivery or C-section, but the examiner can't tell the difference between one prior pregnancy & multiple prior pregnancies.)
On the other hand, according to media reports of the woman's mother's comments, these 8 were embryos left over from a prior IVF procedure, which this woman wanted to use up rather than let go to "waste". Presumably, the bank at which they were stored would have known that these were the last of a previously larger stash. However, they wouldn't have necessarily known the outcome of the prior implantations - many times, IVF results in miscarriage, so couples take periodic withdrawal from their stored embryos, stopping only when they've had a successful pregnancy or when the supply is gone (or the money runs out).
This case is an example of potential benefit of centralized medical records, so that anyone she goes to for treatment would know her medical/obstetric history. On the other hand, there is potential for abuse of centralized medical records, including by big brother, & I suspect we'll have this kind of information-sharing in the U.S. right about the time that hell freezes over. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 19:15:32 [Permalink]
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Well, she's still well short of the world record for the number of births by a human female: 69.
She'll probably be a winner in the evolutionary race.
Unless there's any evidence that her kids are being mistreated, I don't really see what the problem is (I haven't read any more than what has been displayed on this page). I do know that there are problems associated with multiple births, so I think that the doctor(s) performing the procedure on her should be reprimanded. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 20:27:24 [Permalink]
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But, the key point is informed consent.
If the procedure was correctly explained and that the practician was satisfied that she understood the risk, I do not really think it was his place to refuse the procedure.
In the same way that I disagree with practician refusing to perform abortions or to prescribe contraceptives. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 01:41:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But, the key point is informed consent.
If the procedure was correctly explained and that the practician was satisfied that she understood the risk, I do not really think it was his place to refuse the procedure.
In the same way that I disagree with practician refusing to perform abortions or to prescribe contraceptives.
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On the other hand, I would support any physician who refused to prescribe birth control pills or perform an abortion if either refusal were for valid medical reasons. I understand there are occasionally purely medical reasons not to do either.
I can certainly see how a doctor, if aware of all the factors concerning this woman, would be doing the medically ethical thing if he were to refuse to implant eight fetuses in her.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/02/2009 01:43:15 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 08:49:40 [Permalink]
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A medical reason not to perform a abortion? I am not sure; I would expect the trauma of the actual pregnancy to always be vastly more demanding on the actual human body.
As for the ivf, it is my understanding that generally, many eggs are implanted, because the individual risks of rejection are so high.
Then, the normal procedure is too remove all but one of the developing embryos.
Now, it is always possible for a woman to go through the first phase as per usual and then refuse to have the additional eggs remove. Indeed, fundies have been known to do just that. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 17:51:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
A medical reason not to perform a abortion? I am not sure; I would expect the trauma of the actual pregnancy to always be vastly more demanding on the actual human body.
As for the ivf, it is my understanding that generally, many eggs are implanted, because the individual risks of rejection are so high.
Then, the normal procedure is too remove all but one of the developing embryos.
Now, it is always possible for a woman to go through the first phase as per usual and then refuse to have the additional eggs remove. Indeed, fundies have been known to do just that.
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Dang it! I just hate it when more knowledgeable people wreck my ignorance-based arguments!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 12:04:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
A medical reason not to perform a abortion? I am not sure; I would expect the trauma of the actual pregnancy to always be vastly more demanding on the actual human body.
As for the ivf, it is my understanding that generally, many eggs are implanted, because the individual risks of rejection are so high.
Then, the normal procedure is too remove all but one of the developing embryos.
Now, it is always possible for a woman to go through the first phase as per usual and then refuse to have the additional eggs remove. Indeed, fundies have been known to do just that. |
It is controversial whether or not implanting mulitple embryos actually increases birth rates for IVF. From New Scientist:
But a team at the Centre for Reproductive Medicine in Antwerp now say IVF techniques have now developed sufficiently that single transfers are as likely to result in a pregnancy as a multiple transfer.
They studied 1073 embryo transfers. Of these, 207 were transfers of "top quality" embryos, and 34 per cent of these transfers resulted in ongoing pregnancies. They also looked at 809 transfers of multiple embryos. They found that 281 produced ongoing pregnancies - a success rate of 34.7 per cent. |
As for risks from multiple births:
The risks of multiple births are much higher for both mother and babies. The mother is six times as likely to suffer complications and three times more likely to die. On average, IVF twins are born three weeks premature and weigh a kilogram less than normal.
Multiple births are the main cause of infant death in the first month, an Australian study found in 2001. Twins are three times as likely to die around the time of birth, and triplets are nine times as likely. Those that survive are more frequently left with physical or mental disabilities: the rate of cerebral palsy is six times as high for twins and 18 times higher for triplets, for instance. |
I must admit that I am no expert on IVF, but I have never before heard about removing excess implanted embryos. Have you got some source for this? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Yanaqa
SPAMMER
1 Post |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 13:13:53 [Permalink]
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What started out as just a local phenomenon at a highschool in Brandon,Florida is about to stretch it's boundries to the whole nation. For the first time ever, the infamous Shut Em Down basketball shorts and apparel will be made available for purchase to anyone who wants to sport and support the next big brand in athletic gear. So hop on board, you're either first, or you're last! www.eatmyshortsyoudamnspammer.com Check us out!
http://shutemupsports.com/ |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 13:28:31 [Permalink]
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Well stop the presses! Shorts are on sale!
Perhaps you shouldnt label your own product as infamous, just a suggestion, especially since there is no big slashed X in the name implying extremeness. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 13:52:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Yanaqa
What started out as just a local phenomenon at a highschool in Brandon,Florida is about to stretch it's boundries to the whole nation. For the first time ever, the infamous Shut Em Down basketball shorts and apparel will be made available for purchase to anyone who wants to sport and support the next big brand in athletic gear. So hop on board, you're either first, or you're last! XXXXX Check us out!
XXXXX
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What is this? Spam in the middle of a thread? That must be some sort of an SFN record -- usually it shows up as an OP. And the record was set in one of my threads!
[Edited to remove spammer's links - Dave W.]
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 17:03:19 [Permalink]
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On a completely unrelated matter:  Fresh off his stint as a war correspondent in Gaza, Joe the Plumber is now doing political strategy with Republicans.
When GOP congressional aides gather Tuesday morning for a meeting of the Conservative Working Group, Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher – more commonly known as Joe the Plumber — will be their featured guest. This group is an organization of conservative Capitol Hill staffers who meet regularly to chart GOP strategy for the week.
Wurzelbacher, who became a household name during the presidential election, will be focusing his talk on the proposed stimulus package. He's apparently not a fan of the economic rescue package, according to members of the group.
If nothing else, GOP aides are using the appearance to get staffers to attend the 9 a.m meeting.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 18:16:12 [Permalink]
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| So, apart from being unable to fill up his tax declaration, what are Joe's qualifications? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Jill the Plumber
