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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2008 : 18:34:23 [Permalink]
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After a second viewing, and reading the lyrics, I find myself agreeing with Dude.
The fact that people are unsure however, makes it obvious that either it was intended (as marf pointed out) for "internal" consumption, or simply only works that way. It's hardly going to be very effective at persuading even a casual non-realist. An amusing bit of entertainment, IMHO.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 09:06:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
It is 100% not made by creationists or anyone supportive or associated with expelled. |
...and...| The second funniest thing about it, however, is the people on PZs blog (and now you HH, sorry), who are convinced it is some creationist propaganda piece. |
Sorry, Dude. You really should have listened to all those people who's opinion you found so hilariously misguided. Turns out we were right. It was made by the makers of Expelled.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/21/2008 09:07:10 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 10:26:18 [Permalink]
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Dude:
| It is 100% not made by creationists or anyone supportive or associated with expelled. |
Yep. I was wrong. The vid was paid for by the Expelled producers and made by a guy associated with the movie.
H.H. said:
| Sorry, Dude. You really should have listened to all those people who's opinion you found so hilariously misguided. |
Well, now I have even less respect for your "opinion" than before. You throw that down as if your guess was perfectly correct.... unfuckingreal.
Edmonson:
| I suppose the answer is that I tried to make something that was funny to me and It's not really meant to convince anyone of anything |
PZ:
That's how I felt about it: it's amusing, and that's all that matters — it's vague enough that it can be read any way you want.
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Ok. It was made by Edmonson, paid for by the producers of expelled.
Still missing: What is Edmonson's worldview? Is he a creationist? Or is he just a guy who worked for a company that was hired by Expelled? Without that its impossible to guess his intent beyond what he has stated.
What about the guy who is credited with the writing? The results for "Matt Chandler" in a google search gets a bunch of stuff from a TX megachurch pastor... nothing about Expelled or this vid, a google of the premise media site gives no reference to the guy.
Regardless of any other motivation he may have had the video was definitely funny. The references in the video were not going to be understood or recognized by most of the Expelled target audience. My first take, and 10th take, still says that the video is a parody of creationist strawmen.
I was not alone in my assessment either. Many of the people posting on PZ's blog have the same opinion. Many STILL do: Scroll down to #15 "The image of arrogant scientists crushing freedom of speech is a patina that rubs through very quickly. It seems like an ironic mirror of the persecution complex so dear to people of faith." Then to #30 "So wait... the team behind Expelled made what is singularly the best meta-satire of ID/Creationism ever... "
I'm sure there will be more.
But lets also consider this:
http://endogenousretrovirus.blogspot.com/2008/04/where-is-world-is-mike-edmondson.html
EDITED 6:15 pm-- Edmontons name was removed from Premise/EXPELLED at his request.
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| EDITED 4-13-08-- Edmondson is a cool dude-- His videos online are friggen hysterical. How he got tangled up with EXPELLites we may never know |
I don't know what Edmonson's intent was (beyond his statement to make something funny), and neither do you H.H.
To quote myself again:
I honestly don't know how you guys are drawing that conclusion. I've watched it a dozen times now, read a transcript of the lyrics several times.... trying to see it as an attack on science and scientists.
To me it is just to sophisticated, and even if the intent is what Half and HH think it is, the effect is the opposite. Every time I watch it I see a parody of creationist criticism/attacks on the academics featured in the video, not an attack on those academics.
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So, tell me why I should "have listened to all those people who's opinion you found so hilariously misguided" again H.H. Do you have some intelligent point to make or are you just being a belligerent "assprod" here?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/21/2008 10:29:19 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 10:43:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
So, tell me why I should "have listened to all those people who's opinion you found so hilariously misguided" again H.H. |
Because we were right. Do you need that spelled out again for you?
| Do you have some intelligent point to make or are you just being a belligerent "assprod" here? |
You were quite the assprod when announcing your supreme confidence earlier. And despite the fact that you said that you would be a man and admit it if you were wrong, I see that's not going to be the case. Now it's all backpeddling and trying to excuse your obvious error. Instead of reflecting on how you could have been so spectacularly wrong, Dude, and apologizing for being such an asshole, you're continuing to dig your hole deeper, like spinning convoluted conspiracy theories which you actually had the gall to call "more likely" than simply admitting that Expelled really did make this video. Talk about a guy who can't ever admit error. You're as bad as Dembski.
You weren't the only one who got duped, but you were the one being dick about it. It's high time you eat the humble pie you baked for yourself.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 12:21:50 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
You were quite the assprod when announcing your supreme confidence earlier. And despite the fact that you said that you would be a man and admit it if you were wrong, I see that's not going to be the case. Now it's all backpeddling and trying to excuse your obvious error. Instead of reflecting on how you could have been so spectacularly wrong, Dude, and apologizing for being such an asshole, you're continuing to dig your hole deeper, like spinning convoluted conspiracy theories which you actually had the gall to call "more likely" than simply admitting that Expelled really did make this video. Talk about a guy who can't ever admit error. You're as bad as Dembski.
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Can you read and comprehend a simple sentence in English?
I said:
Yep. I was wrong. The vid was paid for by the Expelled producers and made by a guy associated with the movie.
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What part of that did you miss in your eagerness to be "right"?
HH said:
| like spinning convoluted conspiracy theories |
huh? What the fuck are you talking about?
Your "opinion" on the intent behind this vid is just as speculative as mine. I've admitted my mistake in saying the vid wasn't made by anyone involved with expelled.
You're as bad as Dembski.
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So... you don't really have anything meaningful or intelligent to say. You are just here to throw around insults.
Well, ok. Get back to me after you finish that remedial reading comprehension class you are so clearly in need of.
| Talk about a guy who can't ever admit error. |
Your inclusion of this theme, repeatedly, after I clearly admit my error says something about you HH. Kil will have a little hissy fit if I explain it to you though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 12:36:36 [Permalink]
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Dude, you admitted you were wrong in one sentence, but then spent 18 paragraphs explaining why that doesn't really matter. So it wasn't so much an apology as a moving of the goalposts. Dude is wrong, but not really, and here's why. You also refused to give credit to the people who were obviously correct, the same people you mocked as being more funny than the actual video. So no, you're well short of where you need to be in terms of accepting your mistakes and apologizing.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 15:47:51 [Permalink]
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H. Humbert, Edmonton's motivation for making that video does weigh in on the matter.
Edmonton is associated with Expelled because he worked for them. But that does not equal him being a representative for Mathis and the rest.
Until we are briefed on how much the producers of Expelled was involved (if at all!), we should as good skeptics reserve judgement.
What does "paid for" mean anyway (and says who?)? There was a transition period at work when I didn't have much to do other than playing around with Microsoft Frontpage. I made my own web page, during office hours. That basically made my page "paid for" by my employer. But none of it had really anything to do with them, the association ended there.
Dude is right, we still lack much relevant information about the circumstances of the creation of the video.
But the video is funny.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 18:51:37 [Permalink]
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HH said:
| You also refused to give credit to the people who were obviously correct, the same people you mocked as being more funny than the actual video. |
You aren't "obviously" correct!
I've admitted my error, that the video was indeed made by people associated with Expelled, three times now.
I haven't given up the point on the intent of the person creating it yet, because that hasn't been discovered beyond his own vague statement that he just wanted to make something he thought was funny.
You obviosly want me to grovel and beg your forgivness for my error... well, you can go suck on one of bng's fecal-candies and wash it down with a glass of your own urine before that will happen.
The point you really want me to concede is the effect of the video. You see it as pure creationist propaganda, I see it as a sophisticated parody of creationist strawmen. I think its funny (fucking hilarious) that others see it as creationist propaganda. Even if the intent of the video's creators was pure creationist propaganda, it doesn't give that impression to at least half (a quick estimate from the comments on PZ's blog) the people who see it and comment.
So why don't you stamp your feet, pitch a fit, and hold your breath while you wait for me to concede that point.
... oh, wait, you already are! nvrmnd!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 19:19:39 [Permalink]
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You're right, Dude. I wanted an apology for the way in which you arrogantly dismissed the people who were trying to offer an alternative perspective--and the correct one, as it's turned out. It's funny to see you calling for a nuanced perspective now when in the beginning you were so positive that only your opinion could possibly be correct. But you are not honorable, so I'm wasting my breath.
At least I can feel satisfied knowing that I didn't jump the gun to false conclusions, and that I wasn't one of the cultural retards who stupidly speculated that this bit of Expelled marketing might the work of the South Park boys or Terry Gilliam. I sure would feel like a major league asshole if I had been that wrong.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/21/2008 19:20:24 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 01:06:44 [Permalink]
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Wow! All the really funny gladiators in one ring, and not a referee in sight! Damn, this is more fun than pot-stirring, button-pushing, ball-busting or even being an artist!
One of the better pissing matches of the past month, and I'm out here in the audience! I can't believe it!
I love it! I'll lay 6 to 4 on Hummer to win, but only 'til the next post! Things can change fast in a Battle of the Titans with no moderation! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 02:14:16 [Permalink]
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Dude, Humbert, cool it off both of you.
This is the humour folder.
As much as I think bitch-slapping can be fun to watch, this isn't the appropriate place for it. Dish it out with PMs, and return when you have worked it out. Don't make me lock this thread, please. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 11:09:52 [Permalink]
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HH said:
| I wanted an apology for the way in which you arrogantly dismissed the people who were trying to offer an alternative perspective--and the correct one, as it's turned out. |
Well, there's your problem! You are making an assumption about the video whiich you can't back with evidence! Your "perspective", which you are assuming to be correct, is not established.
I have (this makes four times) said that I was in error with the attribution of the video.
The main point I have had, and still have, is the effect of the video. Obviously I am not the only person who sees it this way. The intent of the video's creator is also only vaguely established (from his own vague coments).
So go ahead, stamp your feet and hold your breath some more. When you finally pass out maybe you'll hit your head and have some sense knocked into it.
But you are not honorable, so I'm wasting my breath.
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Ohhhhh, ouch! Yes, better save that breath for your pathetic little tantrum.
I have owned up to the error of fact that I made in this thread. Everything else is either unestablished or a matter of opinion or taste. And I'm still laughing at you.
Only now the source of my amusement is how pissed off you are and how badly it has clouded your perceptions, rather than your opinion of the video.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 11:59:54 [Permalink]
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Yep! Odds change! Seven to six for Dude. Anybody want to spot a fin, I'll give you nine to eight. Filthy?
Gotta call it a draw if Mabuse uses the R-bomb! Except that both Hummer and the Harp from Hell lose! |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2008 : 08:34:00 [Permalink]
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Well, it's been almost two weeks since Dude and bngbuck have ignored the moderator's warning without repercussions, so I must conclude that there's no sense trying to play by rules that are never enforced. bngbuck, particularly, has done nothing in this thread but troll, and I can't help but wonder why he still has posting privileges here at SFN at all.
So to continue my end of this discussion, in a new interview, Michael Edmondson, the creator of the Beware the Believers video, again fails to give any indication that he is a stealthy evolution advocate who managed to pull the wool over the eyes of a group of creationists, as Dude has now further speculated in a futile attempt to salvage his vanity.
Edmondson own words do not support Dude's wishful thinking:
| I tried to get a reading on Edmondson's leanings on this matter, asking him if he was sympathetic to Expelled's cause. “The video wasn't just meant to be funny. I think it has something to say,” he replied. “It was meant to spark debate and bring attention to the issue…What I meant was that the animation was not intended to convince people of anything. |
| I pressed further, asking if the “Poe's Law” written on Stein's shirt meant that he was intentionally mocking the intelligent design promoters. “No… but yes,” he said. “Like many things we included in the videos what you see has everything to do with what you bring to it and can be interpreted a few different ways. A person's world view colours how they see the world and these animations. We knew some people would see it that way. The animations make fun of everyone.” (bolding mine) |
Hmm. This sounds almost verbatim to my earlier prediction:| It's either a disinterested 3rd party trying to lampoon both sides, or it's someone with an expressly creationist point of view. |
So, I think we can now put to bed any hope that Dude was correct in any capacity whatsoever. He was as wrong as it was possible to be. Dude actions could serve as textbook example of delusional thinking, where once an individual accepts a bad conclusion, it becomes nearly impossible to dislodge. Even after being forced to admit that Edmondson's Beware the Believers video was created for the makers of Expelled, Dude could not accept that he was wrong about Edmondson's intentions. Now that he can no longer cling to that possibility, look for Dude to back-peddle once again. I suspect the next step in his denial will be to claim that Edmondson's intention don't actually matter at all, but that since Dude can view the video as anti-creationism, then that effectively makes it so.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2008 : 08:58:32 [Permalink]
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HH siad:
So, I think we can now put to bed any hope that Dude was correct in any capacity whatsoever. He was as wrong as it was possible to be. Dude actions could serve as textbook example of delusional thinking, where once an individual accepts a bad conclusion, it becomes nearly impossible to dislodge. Even after being forced to admit that Edmondson's Beware the Believers video was created for the makers of Expelled, Dude could not accept that he was wrong about Edmondson's intentions. Now that he can no longer cling to that possibility, look for Dude to back-peddle once again. I suspect the next step in his denial will be to claim that Edmondson's intention don't actually matter at all, but that since Dude can view the video as anti-creationism, then that effectively makes it so.
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You pathetic little crybaby, you are so stuck on being offended that I think you are worth laughing at that you cant put enough distance between your emotional overreaction and the video to be objective.
So Edmonson says he was poking fun at both sides. Good for him!
But wait... I can chery pick from Edmonson's comments too!
Edmonson:
In the second video there appears the text ‘In Vitro Vertas.' It means ‘the truth is in the test tube.' I think that is a true statement for this issue. If intelligent design is true the truth will eventually come out through the science. I think the film has a viewpoint that has the right to be heard.”
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HH:| Dude could not accept that he was wrong about Edmondson's intentions. |
Looks like I wasn't the only one who didn't have Edmonson's intent squarely pegged! He is clearly not a "disinterested third party" and obviously does not have an "expressly creationist point of view"!
So are you gonna grovel and beg forgiveness for your arrogance and error HH? You can start now by apologizing to me for you being such a hypocritical little fuckwad in this thread.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Beware the Believers
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