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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 04/02/2008 : 13:01:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I am calling all to arms and naming the biggest contributors by name.
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That would be the average American Joe.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 13:48:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A carbon offset is a financial instrument representing a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Although there are six primary categories of greenhouse gases, carbon offsets are measured in metric tons of carbon dioxide-equivalent (CO2e). One carbon offset represents the reduction of one metric ton of carbon dioxide, or its equivalent in other greenhouse gases.
Carbon credits are a key component of national and international emissions trading schemes that have been implemented to mitigate global warming. They provide a way to reduce greenhouse effect emissions on an industrial scale by capping total annual emissions and letting the market assign a monetary value to any shortfall through trading. Credits can be exchanged between businesses or bought and sold in international markets at the prevailing market price. Credits can be used to finance carbon reduction schemes between trading partners and around the world. |
Whee. You can parrot definitions, but still have trouble using the terms correctly. Thanks for demonstrating my point.| When I say "all he can do" I am referring to cutting back on travel and living accommodations to begin with. You know, what he is asking all of us to do. |
Quote him doing so. |
The post-2000 Gore has changed one angle of his green message: In his book, "Earth in the Balance," Gore warned that "sacrifice, struggle and a wrenching transformation of society" would be necessary to save the planet. Even if a "miraculous technology" was able to cut per-capita greenhouse gas emissions in half, he wrote, Washington still would have to raise taxes on gasoline, electricity and heating oil. |
And that doesn't say one thing about "cutting back on travel and living accommodations."| No doubt this would inflict great sacrifice on the common working man. |
No doubt? Why not?| Again with the whole right-wing conspiracy thing? |
I never said "conspiracy," and there's no reason to think there is one. Pro-corporation right-wing Americans don't like Gore.| And just because it is right-wing does not mean that it is wrong by default. |
No, but by limiting yourself to right-wing sources, you base your conclusions on only half the story. And the first link you provided was to Wing-Nut Daily again! Sheesh.Yeah, yeah, the idea that if he owns the company the offsets are free is ludicrous.This is a joke.| riehlworldview.com/.../2007/03/al_gores_inconv.html |
Page not found.This is simply a cut-and-paste of this right-wing piece which rests upon some key speculation.Right-wing anti-tax paranoia.An attempt by a right-winger to smear Gore by association with Strong.Should have posted that yesterday.Yes, how many times are we going to see this innuendo piece?Everything in this blog post has already been debunked.Yeah... maybe I'll read the rest when I have more time, but I'm predicting it'll be more of the same. Did you have some sort of point to make with this list?| The right wing juggernaut/conspiracy just rolls on and on.... |
I don't know what you're talking about.| Right. When they pay for Al's jet travels and utilities for his mansion this is not Al making money. This is just Al's company offsetting his footprint using company money. |
You really don't read for comprehension, do you?| "Do as I say and not as I do" Al Gore |
Again: you should have posted that yesterday. I'll take your non-answer as an admission that you can't actually find Gore telling people to do things that he doesn't do.| I didn't have to. It is all over the net. |
If the above links are any indication, what's "all over the net" is right wingers villifying a liberal. No surprise there, but hardly enough to base your conclusion on.| Fine. Still is no sacrifice however. |
Ah, yes, because you've convinced yourself otherwise. You keep repeating it - maybe it'll come true some day.| Jumped? When Al was pressed on his own footprint he handwaved it off with a check to his own company. |
It wasn't a handwave. It's hard to believe that you fault the man for being a capitalist! What are you, Bill, some sort of commie?| So what was done about all this during the Clinton/Gore years? |
Fights with the Republican Congress.| What has the democratic congress and senate done... |
Fight with congressional Republicans and Bush.| And as a MMGW denier I certainly won't stop anyone wanting to spend their money on credits etc... I may snicker a little... |
But God forbid a tax, right?| See, you can't even be bothered to correctly remember what you'd previously said, and so now you're puzzled when it's pointed out that you were wrong. |
I simply played along with your notion that Al was neutral to keep the conversation rolling forward. I never fell for the concept that Al was neutral by simple cutting a check to himself. |
You still won't acknowledge that you were wrong about Gore not practicing what he preaches.| But how Al Gore lives has nothing to do with whether MMGW exists. |
Never said that it did. |
Then why do you waste time castigating Gore instead of posting about evidence against the MMGW hypothesis? There's your hypocrisy, shining through!| I don't think you actually know what those standards are. |
Well I sure wont learn the standards by watching Al Gore himself. |
Brilliant maneuver there, Bill: now you can insist that Gore's not living up to his own standards while refusing to even find out what those standards are.| Of course not, since you've ludicrously allowed yourself to conclude that they're "a joke and a scam" based on little more than the proclamations of Wing-Nut Daily and other obviously politically charged sources. |
Oh yeah, you and Hillary with the vast right wing conspiracy drum beat. |
And you've deftly avoided the point.| I don't know what your talking about. The Saudis are not even our number one oil supplier. |
I was making the same argument as you were, using a different subject, to demonstrate the absurdity of the "injustice" you tried to point out. |
What point? |
You don't know what point you were making with your diatribe? Good grief.| Why? They are responsable to the shareholders and they didn't set the stage for the high prices. They want to build new refineries and tap for oil in the homeland. It's the environmentalists who don't and now as a result we have a limited supply of gas to meet a growing demand. *poof* high gas prices |
But if Exxon and its shareholders gave up their profits, gasoline would be free for Americans, even if it would otherwise be $4 a gallon. Obviously, they're simply being greedy.| It's simple. The activists have cut supply by limiting no new refineries be built and limited the amount of homegrown oil which can be tapped and the result is high gas prices in a world where demand is growing fast. The poor are the first to suffer the effects of high gas prices, period. So, therefore, intended or not, the activists have caused the poor much grief. It's just that simple |
It's simple: Exxon and Exxon's shareholders don't require $40 billion in profit every year, but by greedily keeping it they deprive the poor (and themselves) of free gasoline.| No, I am helping. Even if the concept did work offsets would be a drop in a 55 gallon drum compared to the CO2 China and India are/will be pumping out. That is why I said Al would break the bank trying to offset these guys. I am calling all to arms and naming the biggest contributors by name. |
What would help would be to encourage the Idians and Chinese to purchase offsets, Bill. Instead, you're telling everyone that so long as India and China maintain the status quo, all their offset purchases are worthless. That only helps to reduce offset buys. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 05:18:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
I am calling all to arms and naming the biggest contributors by name.
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That would be the average American Joe.
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Wrong! China pumps out more CO2 per year then anyone. And India is on pace to pass the US soon, if they have not already. So your going to have to get over your hatred and destain of the American SUV and reaim your energy. See, cause china and India are only going higher in their output. The American Joe in his SUV is a drop in the bucket compared to these guys. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 05:20:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Apparently, Bill, you can't even be bothered to differentiate between carbon credits and carbon offsets. |
A carbon offset is a financial instrument representing a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Although there are six primary categories of greenhouse gases, carbon offsets are measured in metric tons of carbon dioxide-equivalent (CO2e). One carbon offset represents the reduction of one metric ton of carbon dioxide, or its equivalent in other greenhouse gases.
Carbon credits are a key component of national and international emissions trading schemes that have been implemented to mitigate global warming. They provide a way to reduce greenhouse effect emissions on an industrial scale by capping total annual emissions and letting the market assign a monetary value to any shortfall through trading. Credits can be exchanged between businesses or bought and sold in international markets at the prevailing market price. Credits can be used to finance carbon reduction schemes between trading partners and around the world.
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Copy-and-pasted from Right Side News, one of the most overtly prejudiced "news" sources I've seen on the net. Bill sure makes a good parrot. Too bad this doesn't demonstrate that he doesn't comprehends anything he repeats.
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Actually it came straight from wikkipida. But I am sure you will go on and on about how they are just part of the vast right wing hack job holding the dems and libs back from a utopian society. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 05:51:55 [Permalink]
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| Actually it came straight from wikkipida. But I am sure you will go on and on about how they are just part of the vast right wing hack job holding the dems and libs back from a utopian society. |
Bill, don't you know that every time you reference Wikipedia, God kills a puppy?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/03/2008 06:33:31 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 06:05:20 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| It wasn't a handwave. It's hard to believe that you fault the man for being a capitalist! |
So the man preaches a doomsday message and then invests in a corporation that stands to profit heavily off of the proclaimed solution to the problem and you dismiss this as just capitalism? So I suppose you will say that Hallaburton were just being capitalist in Iraq and their former tie to Dick Cheney is not of concern? Both stink to high heaven with conflict of interest but you will give one capitalist a pass over the other based on your political allegiance.
| So what was done about all this during the Clinton/Gore years? |
Fights with the Republican Congress. |
What about their first two years?
| What has the democratic congress and senate done... |
Fight with congressional Republicans and Bush. |
Don't forget about all their pork barrel projects.
| And as a MMGW denier I certainly won't stop anyone wanting to spend their money on credits etc... I may snicker a little... |
But God forbid a tax, right? |
Why is it that every time the liberals paint a doom and gloom picture the solution always involves taxes and more of them? As if these buffoons don't get enough of my money to pi$$ away already.
| But if Exxon and its shareholders gave up their profits, gasoline would be free for Americans, even if it would otherwise be $4 a gallon. Obviously, they're simply being greedy. |
And why does not the power company give up it's profits and give people free or cheep electricity? Why don't the phone companies give up their profits? And then everyone gets a free phone. Why don't the evil banks give up their profits so everyone can have a free house. Toyota has way to much damn money so why don't they pass out free cars? Al Gore has way to much money so why ain't he passing out free offsets?
| It's simple: Exxon and Exxon's shareholders don't require $40 billion in profit every year, but by greedily keeping it they deprive the poor (and themselves) of free gasoline. |
It's called supply and demand. Alex Rodriguez don't require $28,000,000.000 every year to play baseball, but the demand is there and there are only so many players of his talent level walking the planet, so he gets it. We could bring the price of gas down real quick by building some more refineries and drilling for more of our own oil. Put that will never be allowed to happen.
| What would help would be to encourage the Idians and Chinese to purchase offsets, Bill. |
Good luck with all of that.
| Instead, you're telling everyone that so long as India a |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 06:07:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
| Actually it came straight from wikkipida. But I am sure you will go on and on about how they are just part of the vast right wing hack job holding the dems and libs back from a utopian society. |
Bill, don't you know thar everytime you reference Wikipedia, God kills a puppy?
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No, I didn't. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2008 : 06:32:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
| Actually it came straight from wikkipida. But I am sure you will go on and on about how they are just part of the vast right wing hack job holding the dems and libs back from a utopian society. |
Bill, don't you know that every time you reference Wikipedia, God kills a puppy?
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No, I didn't.
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Yes, you must be very careful. But me, I hate puppies, so I can reference Wiki all the time. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 06:56:02 [Permalink]
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Way to refocus on the science of MMGW, Bill. Such a good example you're setting.Originally posted by Bill scott
So the man preaches a doomsday message and then invests in a corporation that stands to profit heavily off of the proclaimed solution to the problem and you dismiss this as just capitalism? So I suppose you will say that Hallaburton were just being capitalist in Iraq and their former tie to Dick Cheney is not of concern? Both stink to high heaven with conflict of interest but you will give one capitalist a pass over the other based on your political allegiance. |
And I suppose you think that Wal-Mart's president would have a "conflict of interest" if he says, "I think everyone should shop at Wal-Mart."
Gore says "buy offsets" and owns a company which sells them. Gore doesn't say "buy offsets from me." He's not even trying to keep his company a secret, nor are the offsets free (only a fraction of the money he spends on offsets would come back to him through any salary he draws or his investment in the company, which probably amounts to millions of dollars that he can't simply take out and spend somewhere else).
Haliburton had a conflict of interest because it was the government creating a huge contract with a company in which a major player worked for the government. Gore doesn't have any such problem, and attempting to suggest that he does is simply a transparent attack on him personally, and continues to demonstrate your hypocrisy, Bill.| Why is it that every time the liberals paint a doom and gloom picture the solution always involves taxes and more of them? |
Because the motto of the United States of America is not "every man for himself."| As if these buffoons don't get enough of my money to pi$$ away already. |
Are you working towards fixing that problem?| And why does not the power company give up it's profits and give people free or cheep electricity? Why don't the phone companies give up their profits? And then everyone gets a free phone. Why don't the evil banks give up their profits so everyone can have a free house. Toyota has way to much damn money so why don't they pass out free cars? Al Gore has way to much money so why ain't he passing out free offsets? |
You still refuse to engage the point. You tried to make Al Gore's behavior into an example of the Rich Man getting richer on the back of the Poor Man, but every question you just asked is a real example of that, but examples about which you're not complaining - and in fact you think it's ridiculous to complain about them. Your hypocrisy once again.| We could bring the price of gas down real quick by building some more refineries and drilling for more of our own oil. |
We could bring the price down even faster simply by passing a law that says "all energy companies must be not-for-profit." In fact, we could drop prices to record-low levels tomorrow (no need to waste all that money and time waiting for new refineries or drilling - why do you hate the poor so much?).| I am only saying that because their offset purchases are worthless, especially in light of India and China. |
Right, you've got a defeatist attitude. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 10:34:34 [Permalink]
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Research continues, never the less. Scientists have produced further compelling evidence showing that modern-day climate change is not caused by changes in the Sun's activity.
The research contradicts a favoured theory of climate "sceptics", that changes in cosmic rays coming to Earth determine cloudiness and temperature.
The idea is that variations in solar activity affect cosmic ray intensity.
But Lancaster University scientists found there has been no significant link between them in the last 20 years.
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"So we had better carry on trying to cut carbon emissions." as the article states toward the end. Sounds like a good idea to me....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2008 : 13:49:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
I am calling all to arms and naming the biggest contributors by name.
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That would be the average American Joe.
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Wrong! |
No, right!
According to this table.
It clearly says that average American Joe has a carbon emission of 20.4
While average Chinese Chan Siu Ming has a carbon emission of 3.84
An American is polluting five times as much as a Chinese.
| China pumps out more CO2 per year then anyone. And India is on pace to pass the US soon, if they have not already. |
China's and India's increase of fossil CO2 output is concerning indeed. China and India are reluctant to sign a treaty that for any forseeable future prevents Chinese and Indians to reach the same level of economic prosperity as Americans, simply because they don't think one American is worth five Chinese. This is the inequality in the ecological treaties the American government has tried to force upon China, and you have to be an utter moron if you fail to get the Chinese point of view.
The American Joe in his SUV is a drop in the bucket compared to these guys.
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Just as it should be. Joe has to lower his fossil fuel consumption drastically if he is to convince the Chinese Chan Siu Ming to hold his increase. It's Human Nature 101.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 05:29:20 [Permalink]
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I didn't know this! Lindsey Graham, South Carolina's contribution toward the lowering of the collective IQ of the US senate, has discovered that John McCain has done more to fight climate change than that phoney Al Gore ever thought of doing. An online ABC News article on the “surrogate wars” of this year's presidential election quoted Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), an ardent supporter of Sen. John McCain's (R-AZ) candidacy, saying that McCain has “earned a reputation…of doing things that put the country ahead of party.” As an example, Graham cited McCain's environmental record, claiming that it's stronger that former Vice President Al Gore's:
“He's not going to run away from President Bush but at the end of the day, John McCain has earned a reputation, and has the scars to show it, of doing things that put the country ahead of party,” Graham said, noting McCain has differed with the party on immigration, his desire to close Guantanamo Bay, and enacting robust climate change policies.
“Climate change is the road less traveled but he's traveled it even more than Al Gore,” Graham said. “Al Gore has talked about it and deserves great recognition but he was around here a long time and never introduced a bill.”
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Wow! Who'da thunk it? Ol' John was out there a'swingin' whilst Al was sitting on his ass just talking about it but doing nothing to relieve the situation.... Oh, wait a minute.... Let's read on a little farther, shall we: On its face, Graham's claim is laughable. But digging deeper into the substance, it rings of pure absurdity. In fact, Gore held the first congressional hearings on climate change in the late 1970s, well before McCain was even elected to Congress.
In 1997, Gore helped broker the Kyoto Protocol which called for nations to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Despite the passing of a Senate resolution stating that the U.S should not join Kyoto, Gore symbolically signed the protocol in November, 1998. While McCain voted for the resolution condemning Kyoto, he claims today that “we have an obligation” to cut greenhouse gases but still thinks the U.S. “did the right thing by not joining the Kyoto treaty.”
Moreover, the evidence shows that McCain is confused on environmental issues. He now supports ethanol despite previously criticizing it. McCain has talked tough on capping carbon emissions but failed to even vote on key Senate legislation addressing the issue. Furthermore, he doesn't seem to understand his own position on cap-and-trade:
In the Republican debate in Florida, he denied that his cap-and-trade program included a mandatory cap on carbon. (One wonders what he thought that first word was doing in there.) He has said he won't support a cap-and-trade bill unless it includes extra support for nuclear power (because nuclear power is low-carbon), not seeming to grok the fact that the whole point of a cap-and-trade program is to raise prices on carbon, offering a de facto subsidy to all low-carbon options.
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It goes on for a ways, pretty much in the same vein with lots of reference links, but what strikes me is that now that Gore is getting a lot of attention, favorable attention, the wannabe hangers-on, habitual lickspittles and outright liars are grasping desperatly at his coat tails.
It is to laugh...... up your's, Lindsey!  
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 09:58:41 [Permalink]
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The Real Greenhouse Gas is water vapor (not necessarily clouds).
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html#wv
The difference between NOAA and the EPA is that the EPA is full of politicains and NOAA is full of scientists.
Water vapor is an additive feedback loop, the warmer the air, the more vapor it can hold. The more water vapor it holds, the greater the greenhouse effect. I cannot find the link, but basically it says that if the earth's atmosphere contained the same level of vapor that Mars has, the everage Summertime temperature on Earth would be 55 F.
CO2 is a lever so that people like Gore can tell everyone else what to do. He couldn't carry his own state (my state also) in 2000. That should tell you something. |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 10:43:25 [Permalink]
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Bill scott.....
Bill As you appear to be one of the more magnetic members of SFN and I am relatively new here (since last August), would you mind posting a few - whatever you are comfortable with - biographical facts about yourself; the basics - age, gender, occupation, education, religious persuasion, political position (this year), extreme interests, marital status, socioeconomic position (what I really mean is income and net worth, which is damn nosy, but maybe you can give me some idea without bragging too much or inviting IRS attention) and anything else you may care to divulge about your person that may cast light on your world-view.
I have considerable interest in who you are due to the ambivilance of intellectualization that I see in your posts. You pose an interesting puzzle to me with regards to your apparent embrace of religious fundamentalism, neanderthal politics, and gut-bucket capitalism, seasoned with considerable intellectual resource and competent expression and debate skills. - in short, a study in contrasts.
If you have any interest in the same personal information of mine, I will be happy to provide it, of course! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 11:48:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
The Real Greenhouse Gas is water vapor (not necessarily clouds).
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html#wv
The difference between NOAA and the EPA is that the EPA is full of politicains and NOAA is full of scientists.
Water vapor is an additive feedback loop, the warmer the air, the more vapor it can hold. The more water vapor it holds, the greater the greenhouse effect. I cannot find the link, but basically it says that if the earth's atmosphere contained the same level of vapor that Mars has, the everage Summertime temperature on Earth would be 55 F.
CO2 is a lever so that people like Gore can tell everyone else what to do. He couldn't carry his own state (my state also) in 2000. That should tell you something.
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Interesting sites. From the NOAA link:
" Introduction
What are greenhouse gases?
Many chemical compounds present in Earth's atmosphere behave as 'greenhouse gases'. These are gases which allow direct sunlight (relative shortwave energy) to reach the Earth's surface unimpeded. As the shortwave energy (that in the visible and ultraviolet portion of the spectra) heats the surface, longer-wave (infrared) energy (heat) is reradiated to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases absorb this energy, thereby allowing less heat to escape back to space, and 'trapping' it in the lower atmosphere. Many greenhouse gases occur naturally in the atmosphere, such as carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor, and nitrous oxide, while others are synthetic. Those that are man-made include the chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) and Perfluorocarbons (PFCs), as well as sulfur hexafluoride (SF6). Atmospheric concentrations of both the natural and man-made gases have been rising over the last few centuries due to the industrial revolution. As the global population has increased and our reliance on fossil fuels (such as coal, oil and natural gas) has been firmly solidified, so emissions of these gases have risen. While gases such as carbon dioxide occur naturally in the atmosphere, through our interference with the carbon cycle (through burning forest lands, or mining and burning coal), we artificially move carbon from solid storage to its gaseous state, thereby increasing atmospheric concentrations."
It is entirely true that water vapor is dominant in the atmosphere, although there is some contention as to how important it is. As noted, it varies widely with the season. But it also has some odd properties; stuff like sulphur dioxide, a common emission of fossil fuels have a habit of being absorbed by it, as well as much of the other crap mentioned above.
No one has said that we are the sole cause of global warming; we are not. We are an exacerbating factor, and a factor that we can do something about. I myself, doubt that we'll ever have the collective will to do it but still admire Gore for trying and will help as I can.
And Gore won the national popular vote by some half a million or so, but lost the supreme court decision. There are a lot of people, many, I'm sure, in Tennessee, who now wish that they would have voted differently in '00.
But that's for another discussion....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Al tells it like it is.
