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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 12:51:27 [Permalink]
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If Bush is Hitler, then Gore would have been a Moussolini. The people of Tennessee had enough years of Gore to know what he was and is. If you believe that Bush stole the election, then I presume you also believe in the Tooth Fairy. For a skeptic, Filthy, you at least believe in a little mythology. Dimpled chad is most likely created when someone attempts to vote with two or more ballots in the slot!!!!
The fiasco in Florida was manufactured by the Democrats, If Gore had had the courtesy to win Tennessee, the Florida BS whould have never happened. If one believes in the US Constitution, then one must believe that Bush won fairly.
Water vapor is by far the largest contributor of the greenhouse effect. I do think that it is interesting that no one is proposing ways to actually reverse the warming, such as putting dust in the upper atmosphere or some other far fetched idea. It is not about global warming; I believe it as about taking control of our daily lives. They tried this with the ozone layer and Freon, but industry fixed their little wagon; they created new refrigerants.
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I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 13:15:01 [Permalink]
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012401499.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/568829/posts
From Free Republic:
"The consortium asked all 67 counties what standard they would have used and what ballots they would have manually recounted. Combining that information with the detailed ballot examination found that Mr. Bush would have won the election, by 493 votes if two of the three coders agreed on what was on the ballot; by 389 counting only those ballots on which all three agreed."
Ya know why the recounts made by the news consortium were never widely publicized? Bush still won, dammit.
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I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 04/05/2008 : 13:49:57 [Permalink]
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Bush was appointed by the supreme court, not elected. Gore won the election. Ignore the lies from the Bush shills.  |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 14:00:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Water vapor is an additive feedback loop, the warmer the air, the more vapor it can hold. The more water vapor it holds, the greater the greenhouse effect. |
Indeed. The more CO2 in the air, the warmer it will become, leading to increased amounts of water vapor in the air, etc.| CO2 is a lever so that people like Gore can tell everyone else what to do. He couldn't carry his own state (my state also) in 2000. That should tell you something. |
Well, it doesn't tell us anything about climate science, only about your politics.| I do think that it is interesting that no one is proposing ways to actually reverse the warming, such as putting dust in the upper atmosphere or some other far fetched idea. |
Nobody is suggesting those sorts of ideas because they are far-fetched. Well, Dave Scot once suggested exploding just enough nuclear bombs to create just enough nuclear winter to counteract the warming, but he is a loon.
Later, you wrote:| It is not about global warming; I believe it as about taking control of our daily lives. |
I believe you are paranoid.| They tried this with the ozone layer and Freon, but industry fixed their little wagon; they created new refrigerants. |
The reduction in atmospheric chlorine since 1997 has been followed by the recovery of the Antarctic ozone hole. The new refrigerants are exactly what was required. The idea that the ozone situation doesn't represent an environmental problem and its solution, but is instead simply an example of industry pulling the wool over the eyes of some anonymous "they" is ludicrous.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 14:06:42 [Permalink]
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As I said, the 2,000 fiasco is a topic for another discussion. That would be the best place to reference the Freepers.
| Water vapor is by far the largest contributor of the greenhouse effect. I do think that it is interesting that no one is proposing ways to actually reverse the warming, such as putting dust in the upper atmosphere or some other far fetched idea. It is not about global warming; I believe it as about taking control of our daily lives. They tried this with the ozone layer and Freon, but industry fixed their little wagon; they created new refrigerants. |
Of course they created new refridgerents! That was the point of the whole exercise. And it, if not entirely solved the problem, helped.
I'm sure that dusting the upper atmosphere has been considered and possibly disgarded due to being unfeasable. I think I'll look it up.
As for the bolded sentence, Unless you can come up with some empirical evidence in it's favor, including by whom, I'm calling bullshit.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 14:35:59 [Permalink]
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Here's something: The US government wants the world's scientists to develop technology to block sunlight as a last-ditch way to halt global warming, the Guardian has learned. It says research into techniques such as giant mirrors in space or reflective dust pumped into the atmosphere would be "important insurance" against rising emissions, and has lobbied for such a strategy to be recommended by a major UN report on climate change, the first part of which will be published on Friday.
The US has also attempted to steer the UN report, prepared by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), away from conclusions that would support a new worldwide climate treaty based on binding targets to reduce emissions - as sought by Tony Blair. It has demanded a draft of the report be changed to emphasise the benefits of voluntary agreements and to include criticisms of the Kyoto Protocol, the existing treaty which the US administration opposes.
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And so forth. I don't know if this sort of research is being pursued -- it likely is, or at least has been -- but it looks at first blush to have some difficult, indeed all but impossible logistics. It also looks as if it would have to be renewed regularly but not necessarily on a regular basis, the restless atmosphere being what it is.
Another problem I see is that excessivly diminished sunlight would affect crops, so the amount of 'dusting' would have to be carefully controled, another difficult proposition, again, due to ever-changing conditions aloft.
Anybody know some more about it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 14:46:33 [Permalink]
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Filthy: "That was the point of the whole exercise."
Me: So, some of you do believe in conspiracies.
The sentence in bold, that is an opinion cultivated after 61 years of hearing more bullshit from other spreaders of bullshit. Read the Taft quote from my signature script.
I worked for a government agency who had the unfortunate problem of having a conservationist named S. David Freeman appointed chairman by Jimmy "The Dhimmi" Carter. Freeman personally did not like air conditioned cars. He issued an edict that all cars in the fleet would be un-airconditioned manual transmission Chevettes. I was driving to Chattanooge one day with three full grown male passengers, I had to take Missionary Ridge in second gear while I was nearly run over by every damn semi-truck on I-24. It was costing the agency more money to reimberse employees for using their personal cars on agency business.
Energy conservation my ass. |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 15:15:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Filthy: "That was the point of the whole exercise."
Me: So, some of you do believe in conspiracies.
The sentence in bold, that is an opinion cultivated after 61 years of hearing more bullshit from other spreaders of bullshit. Read the Taft quote from my signature script.
I worked for a government agency who had the unfortunate problem of having a conservationist named S. David Freeman appointed chairman by Jimmy "The Dhimmi" Carter. Freeman personally did not like air conditioned cars. He issued an edict that all cars in the fleet would be un-airconditioned manual transmission Chevettes. I was driving to Chattanooge one day with three full grown male passengers, I had to take Missionary Ridge in second gear while I was nearly run over by every damn semi-truck on I-24. It was costing the agency more money to reimberse employees for using their personal cars on agency business.
Energy conservation my ass.
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What the hell is that all about? It's an interesting ancedote, but has nothing to do with the topic. But, to be helpful, next time I'd suggest a better car, with or without AC.
And I too, recall the banning of freon in refridgerating systems, and that too, has little to do with it. The only conspiricies I buy into are the ones that can be evidenced, which are very few & far between, and you have produced nothing of the sort.
So, like convince me.... How is Gore involved in a climate change conspiricy and exactly to what end?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 15:16:30 [Permalink]
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Filthy, I have read about some of those proposals, but I never head that anybody was considering them. If the consequences of a warmer global climate are as terrible as the Chicken Littles say they are, those proposals should be enacted, and something should be in NASA's budget. The earth's climate is such a complicated heat transfer problem that even if all man made CO2 emissions were stopped now, the warming trend is probably beyond reduction. I Do not believe the problem is CO2, and beware of any climatologist who claims to have all the answers. The evidence that the earth's climate began warming long before the industrial age is never explained, at least I have never seen an explanation.
Those of you who dismiss solar activity as an influence on climate, need to study just a little more.
This for example:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 15:24:54 [Permalink]
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Just because several people think alike and want the same thing, does not make it a conspiracy.
I wish I could change my user name to "The Cynical Skeptic." |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 15:54:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Filthy, I have read about some of those proposals, but I never head that anybody was considering them. If the consequences of a warmer global climate are as terrible as the Chicken Littles say they are, those proposals should be enacted, and something should be in NASA's budget. The earth's climate is such a complicated heat transfer problem that even if all man made CO2 emissions were stopped now, the warming trend is probably beyond reduction. I Do not believe the problem is CO2, and beware of any climatologist who claims to have all the answers. The evidence that the earth's climate began warming long before the industrial age is never explained, at least I have never seen an explanation.
Those of you who dismiss solar activity as an influence on climate, need to study just a little more.
This for example:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml
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I agree, we are not going to stop warming, only, maybe, make it a little less severe. Cutting down on carbon emissions is one way to do that.
And you've sent me off on a brief reference search (I'm only a little familiar with the science and must do some study). I found a couple of intersting things demonstrating just how complicated the upper atmosphere really is. Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS)
Following the deployment of the Goddard Space Flight Center's (GSFC) Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS) on Sept. 15, 1991, from the Space Shuttle Discovery, scientists have gained a better understanding of the energy input, chemistry and dynamics of the upper atmosphere and the coupling between the upper and lower atmosphere. UARS, the first satellite dedicated to studying stratospheric science, focuses on the processes that lead to ozone depletion, complementing and amplifying the measurements of total ozone made by the Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer (TOMS) onboard NASA's Nimbus-7 and the Russian Meteor-3 satellites.
Ten UARS instruments have provided the most complete data on upper atmospheric energy inputs, winds, and chemical composition ever gathered. Together, these observations constitute a highly integrated investigation of the nature of the upper atmosphere. In its first two weeks of operation, UARS data confirmed the polar ozone-depletion theories by providing three-dimensional maps of ozone and chlorine monoxide near the South Pole during development of the 1991 ozone hole. UARS, developed and managed by GSFC, in Greenbelt, Md., provides information that nations around the world can use to guide decisions on environmental policies, according to scientists.
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The second link is in chapters and goes into it a little deeper.
Scientists shouting "Poppycock" at each other is nothing new. They do it all the time and some of their disagreements can be pretty bitter. And even funny. I'm sure that the sun cycles have something to do with it, the question being one of degree. The research is still far from complete on all fronts, but at least in the short term, it makes sense to do what can be done and that is, basicly, cleaning up our collective act. And this can be done if industry aquires the will for it, as was shown by your very good, freon example. At the moment, they seem to be trading long-term security for right-now convience. And this holds as true for Joe Sixpack as it does for Sam Stockholder and Charlie CEO.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 17:42:08 [Permalink]
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Here's another opinion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/14/nclimate114.xml |
I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.
"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft
"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 18:02:48 [Permalink]
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From a physicist and an economist. That's almost as persuasive as lawyers passing judgment on biology.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/05/2008 18:03:55 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 18:08:28 [Permalink]
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More
Fred Singer crap.
From Source Watch
Oil Industry Contractor
In a September 24, 1993, sworn affidavit, Dr. Singer admitted to doing climate change research on behalf of oil companies, such as Exxon, Texaco, Arco, Shell and the American Gas Association. [10]
However, on February 12, 2001, Singer wrote a letter to The Washington Post "in which he denied receiving any oil company money in the previous 20 years when he had consulted for the oil industry. |
Oh, and then there is this:
Unstoppable disinformation every 15 minutes from Fred Singer
… I kid you not. So four years ago, Singer said the scientific evidence of warming was not compelling. By 2007, he was publishing a book saying the science shows we are in a natural warming cycle.
Why, why, why, traditional media, do you keep quoting someone who just keeps making stuff up and contradicting himself as he goes along?
Singer has been an unstoppable industry gun-for-hire for a long, long time -- even for the tobacco industry… |
Same ol, same ol...
Let me ask you Pelayo. What if you're wrong? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 20:19:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Me: So, some of you do believe in conspiracies. |
Personal attack, empty of science.| I worked for a government agency... |
Personal anecdote, empty of science.| Filthy, I have read about some of those proposals, but I never head that anybody was considering them. If the consequences of a warmer global climate are as terrible as the Chicken Littles say they are... |
Personal attack, empty of science.| ...those proposals should be enacted, and something should be in NASA's budget. |
Displayed ignorance of politics, despite earlier reliance on inside knowledge.| The earth's climate is such a complicated heat transfer problem that even if all man made CO2 emissions were stopped now, the warming trend is probably beyond reduction. |
Too complicated excuse, too late excuse, and empty of science.| I Do not believe the problem is CO2... |
And why is your opinion on the matter important?| ...and beware of any climatologist who claims to have all the answers. |
The only ones I see who make such claims are those who, for example, say that solar activity is the problem.| The evidence that the earth's climate began warming long before the industrial age is never explained, at least I have never seen an explanation. |
What evidence is that, specifically?| Those of you who dismiss solar activity as an influence on climate... |
Nobody in their right mind would dismiss solar activity as one of many influences on climate, especially not the climatologists.| ...need to study just a little more. |
Personal attack, again. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Al tells it like it is.
