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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 09:20:51 [Permalink]
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Cune......
I have been in contact with Ben Stein and he is excited about hosting your shitty project. He suggested the possibility that, preceding your defecations, you pass gas in the key of c sharp minor and we record it in high-definition stereophonic sound. The CD will be titled The Prelude in C Sharp Minor and, as a musical classic, it will certainly go down in history as fArt! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2008 : 11:10:24 [Permalink]
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Now, this reminds me of something. Can't quite get ahold of it..... Durn. It went away like the wind.....
Don't you just hate it when that happens?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 12:26:06 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
I swear, Filthy, you come up with weirder shit than Charles Fart who wrote the damndest book I have read!
Le Pétomane was undoubtedly the most outre´ Fartist until Cheney came along! I about laughed myself silly! (Cheney and Rove manage to pull alligators out of their asses on a regular basis, though!)
Thanks for the link!
Marf's remarks on art is everything and everything is art certainly seem to be borne out bythis example of the Universe imitating Art! Photograph by Hubble, art by Van Gogilleo!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2008 : 19:25:46 [Permalink]
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marf said:
| It was art either way, and whether you or anyone else appreciates it or not. |
No, it wasn't. If you have no distinction between what is, and isn't art, then the term becomes useless. If you can call a tube of paint "art", why bother using it to paint? Human excretory functions are not art, they are biohazardous waste. They aren't art until you start excreting ON something.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/18/2008 19:26:41 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 21:45:23 [Permalink]
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| Any tube of paint might be art, but not all tubes of paint are art. For a tube of paint to be art, it must be presented as art by someone who intends it to be art, and accepted as art by an audience willing to do so. None of which can save it from being stupid, meaningless and cheap art, but it would still be art. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 00:53:01 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| For a tube of paint to be art, it must be presented as art by someone who intends it to be art, and accepted as art by an audience willing to do so. |
What size audience? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 04:19:47 [Permalink]
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So I ask: by definition is Piss Christ art? All it took to compose was a jar, a cheap crusifix, a little blood, and a couple of beers. Hell, even I could have done that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 04:26:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
I swear, Filthy, you come up with weirder shit than Charles Fart who wrote the damndest book I have read!
Le Pétomane was undoubtedly the most outre´ Fartist until Cheney came along! I about laughed myself silly! (Cheney and Rove manage to pull alligators out of their asses on a regular basis, though!)
Thanks for the link!
Marf's remarks on art is everything and everything is art certainly seem to be borne out bythis example of the Universe imitating Art! Photograph by Hubble, art by Van Gogilleo!
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From memory and therefore less than reliable: I seem to recall that the governer in Blazing Saddles was named Pétomane. What an odd coincidence, eh?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 05:59:24 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: | No, it wasn't. If you have no distinction between what is, and isn't art, then the term becomes useless. |
The term is defined by humans. Art is a human invention. I already put forth a definition of "art" which covers anything that humans have in history and various cultures regarded in that manner: Anything which is creative expression put in the context of art is art.
| If you can call a tube of paint "art", why bother using it to paint? |
Driftwood sculptures on Jeju Island are found pieces, left unaltered from their natural state, and are regarded as works of art by virtue of the artist's presentation of them as an aesthetic object. They also do this with rocks. It is a long-standing tradition there and there is even an art museum on Jeju island dedicated entirely to pieces of driftwood and rocks collected by artists. There is nothing fundamentally different between that and Duchamp's Urinal.
At what point is there enough manipulation of materials by the artist for you to consider it art? If it isn't enough for an artist to present a tube of paint as art (found sculpture - and long accepted type of art-making, written about in art history books and in art criticism), how about if he or she signs their name to it? If that's not enough manipulation, how about it they cut it open and have a little of the paint bulging out? If that's not enough manipulation, how about if they then smear a mark on the gallery wall with the tube on the floor below? Your distinction between what can and can't be art is arbitrary.
| Human excretory functions are not art, they are biohazardous waste. They aren't art until you start excreting ON something. |
Arbitrary garbage. If what is being called art is someone actually excreting, then it is performance art. The difference between a performance piece with someone shitting and someone just normally shitting is that one is presented as a creative expression to be shared with others. I walk around in daily life, so if I have a part in a play where I just walk around, is that not art? If the shitting is documented in film, then it is film art. If the shit itself is used for something, it is visual art - similar to painting or sculpture.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/19/2008 06:03:44 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 06:21:22 [Permalink]
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bngbuck wrote: | Marf's remarks on art is everything and everything is art certainly seem to be borne out bythis example of the Universe imitating Art! Photograph by Hubble, art by Van Gogilleo! |
I never said anything like that. Go back and read how I defined art. It hardly defines everything as art.
As Dave put it: | Any tube of paint might be art, but not all tubes of paint are art. For a tube of paint to be art, it must be presented as art by someone who intends it to be art, and accepted as art by an audience willing to do so. None of which can save it from being stupid, meaningless and cheap art, but it would still be art. |
Exactly. Except that I wouldn't call it meaningless. If it is art it has some meaning, even if that meaning is vague or silly.
Incidentally, I find Piss Christ to be a great work of art for a variety of reason.
bngbuck wrote: Any size audience. I and my husband occasionally do creative things for only each other that we regard as art.
filthy wrote: | So I ask: by definition is Piss Christ art? All it took to compose was a jar, a cheap crusifix, a little blood, and a couple of beers. |
Are you familiar with the work? It is a photograph, an image, not an assemblage of found objects. Also, no blood was involved. Given that it is a photograph, made by a fine art photographer, presented as visual art in galleries, and written about by art critics as if it were art, I don't see why its status as a "work of art" would even be in question.
| Hell, even I could have done that. |
So what? And people who do restorative work on oil paintings can paint like an old Renaissance master. Are we going to say that the people who restored the Sistine Chapel are as great of artists as Michelangelo? Both the creative element and the cultural context have always been part of the value and discussion of works of art.
A friend of mine who gave up pursuing a career as a professional artist, but who is and probably always will be an artist at heart, currently makes work out of all found materials, such as office supplies and product labels and packaging. His only audience is a handful of friends who appreciate conceptual and contemporary art. The same friend had a brain injury as a child which left him with poor motor control. All of his work could, skill-wise, be made by pretty much anyone. But conceptually, the work is highly sophisticated (even if only a small group of overeducated artfucks such as myself get it) and his own.
This is why these debates over what is art are useless. They lead nowhere. We are better to discuss the merit, and even better yet, the meaning and our reaction to works presented to us as art. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/19/2008 06:25:19 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 07:24:39 [Permalink]
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Of course I'm familiar with Piss Christ! But I remind: it had to be mechanically assembled before it could be photographed. Is the art in the photography or in the assembly? Or both?
And remember, one man's art is another's litter.
Seems I read that cow's blood was used for the reddish tint.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 09:24:46 [Permalink]
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marf said:
| The term is defined by humans. |
I can't imagine a more meaningless sentence than that one. Please give me an example of a term that isn't defined by humans.
| Art is a human invention. |
Not quite as meaningless as your above sentence, but close. Any examples of a non-human invention?
| Anything which is creative expression put in the context of art is art. |
Ok. But in order for that to not be a circular definition you have to have a parameter for "creative expression". Doesn't have to be particularly strict, obviously, but it still has to be there. A sunset, the grand canyon, flowers, beaches, clouds, and all the things in nature we think of as "beautiful"... are not art. Because there is no human intent behind them. The same for human excratory functions.
Its not "art" until you shit, piss, bleed, or spit ON something. Videotaping yourself shitting, pissing, or aborting falls short of the "art" threshold IMO. So does saving your excrement and putting it on display.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 12:35:05 [Permalink]
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Marfknox.....
bngbuck wrote:
Marf's remarks on art is everything and everything is art certainly seem to be borne out by this example of the Universe imitating Art! Photograph by Hubble, art by Van Gogilleo!
I never said anything like that. Go back and read how I defined art. It hardly defines everything as art. |
You did say: | Any size audience. I and my husband occasionally do creative things for only each other that we regard as art. |
By your definition, an audience of one, specifically the "artist", can specify anything as art, and by that act of specification, the anything is transformed into "art". Even if it is denied as such by any number (one to a million or more) other human beings!
Thus, your example transforms your definition of art... | Anything which is creative expression put in the context of art is art. |
....into | Anything which is defined as creative expression by anyone, put into the context of art as defined by anyone, even the definer himself, is Art! |
Is this what you meant?
I ask again: what size audience? |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 13:36:25 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| For a tube of paint to be art, it must be presented as art by someone who intends it to be art, and accepted as art by an audience willing to do so. |
What size audience, Dave?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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using abortion as an art medium
