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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend
USA
58 Posts |
 Posted - 06/02/2008 : 03:21:02
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You are siting on a bus, plane, train or any situation which involves contact with another human being. The person tells you Im going to commit suicide. They give you no reason. What if any is your next course of action. Would you just ignore the persons comments. Is their some moral compulsion for ethical action? Should a person have compassion for a total stranger? Depending on your position in society. You either do something or nothing. Is it your duty,responsibility, or obligation to get involved.
True Story. In 1971 I was a rookie police officer, I was assigned a Training Officer, our assingment one day was foot patrol on a very busy section of the city. This guy walks up to the T.O. they greet each other by first names. The T.O. asked him how everything was going. He replied, Im going to kill myself can I use your gun. The T.O. told him that would make a big mess, your brains would be all over the ceiling and walls. Just go home and stick your head in the oven and turn on the gas. That was the end of the conversation.
I asked the T.O. who the man was, he said he has known him for years and he was a wacko. In 1971 many homes were heated with gas log stoves.
A few days later were learned he was dead. He had stuck his head in the gas stove. This was 1971 and their was no training for police officers dealing with mental health problems. In my 31 years as a police officer I never forgot the incident. I did experience this on two other occassions during my career.I took them into custody, It was called a pink slip detention.
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
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Paul C. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 07:17:51 [Permalink]
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Wow... tough story; I feel for the cop. A mistake that he will have to carry all his life...
As for me; yeah, I think it is my duty to talk to him and try to change his mind.
Indeed, if he told me about wanting to kill himself, chances are that he is looking for a reason not to do it. A stranger's kindness might do it. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 10:19:43 [Permalink]
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| Edit: Double post |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/02/2008 10:22:52 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 10:22:16 [Permalink]
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The Cop has a duty to at least try to tell them it is a bad idea and maybe they should talk to someone. The average person has no such duty(Excluding Catholics naturally).
Personally I have no issues with suicide*, if that's your decision then so be it. I have had members of my family try to kill themselves and have witnessed a suicide. Both were unpleasant, but then death is usually unpleasant..
*One of the reasons I dont have a job which requires me to 'con people out of it' so to speak. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 10:34:49 [Permalink]
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Coat of Arms.....
| You are siting on a bus, plane, train or any situation which involves contact with another human being. The person tells you Im going to commit suicide. They give you no reason. What if any is your next course of action. |
Here is the course of action most likely to save the person's life:
1. Engage the person in a conversation in a quiet, earnest manner and make every effort to learn as much as possible in the few minutes that you have until the bus stops. You are in a much better situation on a train or plane, as it gives you more time,
2. Assuming a bus situation, focus on trying to make a judgment as to the person's mental stability - are they intent on just ending their own life, or might they try to include others?
3. If the person is solely suicidal and apparently not dangerous to others, try to become their friend and offer to step off the bus with them, have lunch or a cup of coffee, and gain more time. Talk!
If the person seems to be violently inclined toward suicide and murder; get identification if possible, stay with the person when he departs the bus, call authorities ASAP. and physically attempt to prevent violence to others if you are capable - both physically and emotionally (courage-wise) If not, try to get help (911, police, etc.)
4. If you are able to spend extended time with the person, attempt to obtain information about any family, friends, or people that may care about the person; and contact them as soon as possible.
5. Try, (very difficult), to get the person to go with you to a major hospital Emergency Room and voluntarily submit to treatment. Emergency rooms do have protocol for treating suicide intenders, as well as suicide attempts.
No medical facility can treat a successful suicide attempt except a morgue!
I have personal experience in this area. Many years ago, I once was successful in leading a suicidal person to medical treatment, the person is alive (and nearly my age) today. We are friends!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 12:54:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The Cop has a duty to at least try to tell them it is a bad idea and maybe they should talk to someone. The average person has no such duty(Excluding Catholics naturally).
Personally I have no issues with suicide*, if that's your decision then so be it. I have had members of my family try to kill themselves and have witnessed a suicide. Both were unpleasant, but then death is usually unpleasant..
*One of the reasons I dont have a job which requires me to 'con people out of it' so to speak.
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I do agree on the principle, one owns his own life and is free to terminate it when he feels like it.
However; many suicides are realized in the mist of a depression and the suicidal person would not have done it if she could think clearly.
And, probably, if the person mentioned it to you, it probably is that she is confused about what she really wants...
Plus, it may her right to kill herself, but not to load somebody with guilt about it.
It might be selfish or inconsistent on my part, but here it is!
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 16:33:27 [Permalink]
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I rarely have sympathy for those who take their own life.
I would probably just call the police if I randomly encountered a suicidal individual.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 19:02:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Coat of Arms.....
| You are siting on a bus, plane, train or any situation which involves contact with another human being. The person tells you Im going to commit suicide. They give you no reason. What if any is your next course of action. |
Here is the course of action most likely to save the person's life:
1. Engage the person in a conversation in a quiet, earnest manner and make every effort to learn as much as possible in the few minutes that you have until the bus stops. You are in a much better situation on a train or plane, as it gives you more time,
2. Assuming a bus situation, focus on trying to make a judgment as to the person's mental stability - are they intent on just ending their own life, or might they try to include others?
3. If the person is solely suicidal and apparently not dangerous to others, try to become their friend and offer to step off the bus with them, have lunch or a cup of coffee, and gain more time. Talk!
If the person seems to be violently inclined toward suicide and murder; get identification if possible, stay with the person when he departs the bus, call authorities ASAP. and physically attempt to prevent violence to others if you are capable - both physically and emotionally (courage-wise) If not, try to get help (911, police, etc.)
4. If you are able to spend extended time with the person, attempt to obtain information about any family, friends, or people that may care about the person; and contact them as soon as possible.
5. Try, (very difficult), to get the person to go with you to a major hospital Emergency Room and voluntarily submit to treatment. Emergency rooms do have protocol for treating suicide intenders, as well as suicide attempts.
No medical facility can treat a successful suicide attempt except a morgue!
I have personal experience in this area. Many years ago, I once was successful in leading a suicidal person to medical treatment, the person is alive (and nearly my age) today. We are friends!
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I think this is dead on. I would hope I had the presence of mind to do exactly the above, given the grave nature of the situation... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 20:48:42 [Permalink]
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| The average person has no such duty(Excluding Catholics naturally).Personally I have no issues with suicide*, if that's your decision then so be it. |
| I do agree on the principle, one owns his own life and is free to terminate it when he feels like it. |
| I rarely have sympathy for those who take their own life. |
I can understand the thinking behind these comments, and exclusive concern for #1 is surely a good survival strategy. But I would wager a very large amount that any of the folks saying in effect: "Fuck it, if they want to waste themselves, what do I care" would have a starkly different perspective if they had ever suffered through a serious and extended mental illness such as clinical depression.
I have, and have successfully conquered it with the help of several contemporary wonder drugs. But I know what it is like to be suicidal. Probably the major factor that helped me resist the tendency to take my own life was the experience that I had had, long before I fell ill, in helping another sick person, a person I did not previously know well, get help and finally conquer their illness. And that was long before the drugs that successfully combat depression today were invented!
As disturbed as I was, and as much as I wanted to die, I could remember the haunting impression that I had of that other poor sick human being who thought he wanted to die! He did not, really, and after recovery he was very, very thankful that he did not succeed in killing himself! As was I, eventually! But, for a while, I was that person. Somehow I knew that I really did not want to die, there was too much left to do, to learn, to experience. But ennui would take over and the fire would fade back to an ember. Somehow I kept it glowing until I got professional help (with the intervention of my wife and daughter) and then found a combination of chemicals that took me out of the abyss.
No one could go through an experience like that and not come out with a deep understanding that a person with mental illness needs treatment, not scorn, disdain, or being ignored! If you ever are in a position to help a mentally ill, suicidal person -- Help!... as you would if you came across a person injured in a car accident, or a seriously ill flu victim that needed medical attention! There is no difference between mental illness and any other illness or injury except the locus of the affected body part!
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 06/03/2008 02:25:30 |
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 04:17:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by bngbuck
Coat of Arms.....
| You are siting on a bus, plane, train or any situation which involves contact with another human being. The person tells you Im going to commit suicide. They give you no reason. What if any is your next course of action. |
Here is the course of action most likely to save the person's life:
1. Engage the person in a conversation in a quiet, earnest manner and make every effort to learn as much as possible in the few minutes that you have until the bus stops. You are in a much better situation on a train or plane, as it gives you more time,
2. Assuming a bus situation, focus on trying to make a judgment as to the person's mental stability - are they intent on just ending their own life, or might they try to include others?
3. If the person is solely suicidal and apparently not dangerous to others, try to become their friend and offer to step off the bus with them, have lunch or a cup of coffee, and gain more time. Talk!
If the person seems to be violently inclined toward suicide and murder; get identification if possible, stay with the person when he departs the bus, call authorities ASAP. and physically attempt to prevent violence to others if you are capable - both physically and emotionally (courage-wise) If not, try to get help (911, police, etc.)
4. If you are able to spend extended time with the person, attempt to obtain information about any family, friends, or people that may care about the person; and contact them as soon as possible.
5. Try, (very difficult), to get the person to go with you to a major hospital Emergency Room and voluntarily submit to treatment. Emergency rooms do have protocol for treating suicide intenders, as well as suicide attempts.
No medical facility can treat a successful suicide attempt except a morgue!
I have personal experience in this area. Many years ago, I once was successful in leading a suicidal person to medical treatment, the person is alive (and nearly my age) today. We are friends!
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I think this is dead on. I would hope I had the presence of mind to do exactly the above, given the grave nature of the situation...
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I agree this is exactly what should be done. And far more extreme then the average person would do for a total stranger. I would say Buck has a higher standard of compassion then most people. Bucks answer is a Humanitarian response favorably or as hoped most people would agree with.
I would dial 911. Do my best to keep the person in eye contact and hope the authorities respond in time. I am not qualified to do any thing else.
| The average person has no such duty(Excluding Catholics naturally).Personally I have no issues with suicide*, if that's your decision then so be it. |
I agree their is no duty. People who suffer from Mental illness are Incapable of making a decision. Dialing 911 would be making the decision for them in their best interest.
| I do agree on the principle, one owns his own life and is free to terminate it when he feels like it. |
True, but I believe the general public senses would agree it's wrong.
| I rarely have sympathy for those who take their own life. |
I don't think of it as sympathy, it's more of a sensation of emotion. What could have been so bad that he took his life.
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Paul C. |
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 04:35:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Coat Of Arms
[quote]This guy walks up to the T.O. they greet each other by first names. The T.O. asked him how everything was going. He replied, Im going to kill myself can I use your gun. The T.O. told him that would make a big mess, your brains would be all over the ceiling and walls. Just go home and stick your head in the oven and turn on the gas. |
When the training officer made that statement. I don't think I can say it was from a lack of training. It was wrong and displayed what we would call today, *critical thinking challenged.* When he said to stick his head in a gas oven, he ceased being a human being.
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
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Paul C. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 11:33:02 [Permalink]
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| I do agree on the principle, one owns his own life and is free to terminate it when he feels like it. |
[ I can understand the thinking behind these comments, and exclusive concern for #1 is surely a good survival strategy. But I would wager a very large amount that any of the folks saying in effect: "Fuck it, if they want to waste themselves, what do I care" would have a starkly different perspective if they had ever suffered through a serious and extended mental illness such as clinical depression.
I have, and have successfully conquered it with the help of several contemporary wonder drugs. But I know what it is like to be suicidal. Probably the major factor that helped me resist the tendency to take my own life was the experience that I had had, long before I fell ill, in helping another sick person, a person I did not previously know well, get help and finally conquer their illness. And that was long before the drugs that successfully combat depression today were invented!
As disturbed as I was, and as much as I wanted to die, I could remember the haunting impression that I had of that other poor sick human being who thought he wanted to die! He did not, really, and after recovery he was very, very thankful that he did not succeed in killing himself! As was I, eventually! But, for a while, I was that person. Somehow I knew that I really did not want to die, there was too much left to do, to learn, to experience. But ennui would take over and the fire would fade back to an ember. Somehow I kept it glowing until I got professional help (with the intervention of my wife and daughter) and then found a combination of chemicals that took me out of the abyss.
No one could go through an experience like that and not come out with a deep understanding that a person with mental illness needs treatment, not scorn, disdain, or being ignored! If you ever are in a position to help a mentally ill, suicidal person -- Help!... as you would if you came across a person injured in a car accident, or a seriously ill flu victim that needed medical attention! There is no difference between mental illness and any other illness or injury except the locus of the affected body part!
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Yes, it was what my next sentence was referring to.
I went through it myself, but I knew enough about the subject to know that it was the disease talking and went to seek treatment.
But, I do not exclude that, in some case, somebody may rationally, after cold reflection, decide that suicide is the best option for him.
That's particularly true in the case of terminal diseases when the person has nothing to look forwards to but months of treatments and pain.
In this case, I think, this person has a right to decide not to go through that. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 12:42:08 [Permalink]
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bng, I did say I would call the authorities to deal with a suicidal person. Let me take it a step further... if they were about to actually kill themselves in my presence I would make an effort to prevent them from doing so. Anyone making claims of suicidal thoughts or trying to kill themselves with witnesses is probably just trying to get attention.
On the other hand, those who really mean to kill themselves, and accomplish the task, I feel little sympathy for.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 14:35:45 [Permalink]
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And why would you?
If they truly estimated that it was the best course of action for them and carried it out, there is little to pity them for.
Now, the whole question is what 'really mean to kill themselves' actually means; because suicidal impulses are often a momentary effect of the brain biochemistry... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 15:52:21 [Permalink]
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Simon.....
| But, I do not exclude that, in some case, somebody may rationally, after cold reflection, decide that suicide is the best option for him. That's particularly true in the case of terminal diseases when the person has nothing to look forwards to but months of treatments and pain. In this case, I think, this person has a right to decide not to go through that. |
I completely agree with the concept of euthanasia, whether self-administered or not, in circumstances such as you describe. It can be a slippery slope, however, and I guess that's why suicide is a crime in many states! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 06/03/2008 16:04:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 18:51:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
...suicide is a crime in many states! |
So far as I know, it is attempted suicide which is criminal. Successful suicides leave nobody to prosecute or penalize. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Duty ,obligation, or responsibility
