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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 09:34:48 [Permalink]
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Humbert:
Honestly, I think the real reason we haven't heard Mooney or Nisbet state their plan in no uncertain terms is because they are suggesting scientists act disingenuously. |
I don't agree. What they promote is a less confrontational approach to those that deny good science. On a basic level, they see the attacks on evolution the same way we do. But they also believe that we will, as it is said, attract more bees with honey. What they miss is that in the fight to reduce attacks on good science, more than one approach is valid. They have dug themselves in and think they own the only right way to argue the points that both sides think are important. That's why they went after Myers, who they think of as counter productive to their cause.
This fight would not be happening if they would stop their attacks on people like Myers who acted appropriately, in my opinion. They want everyone to fall into line with them, and it's not going to happen. They have created an unnecessary split in a war we are all fighting. Like we don't have enough problems dealing with the anti science crowed... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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TFarnon
New Member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2008 : 20:07:42 [Permalink]
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| PZ Myers is a "militant atheist"???? An atheist he may be, but he's no more militant about anything than any OTHER scientist I've ever encountered. The reason that it's a good thing to fund scientific research with tax dollars is NOT because of the discoveries and general increase in understanding of the world we inhabit, but because it's a nice sheltered workshop that keeps the strange people drawn to science off the streets, happily occupied, and not tormenting the general public. Really. I know. I'm a "lab rat". It's a very different world. |
Bacteria RULE, Hominids drool |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2008 : 20:52:18 [Permalink]
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| Hmmm... PZ Myers certainly is an out-spoken atheist; maybe not a 'militant atheist' but, after all, with the possible exception of Dawkins, atheism is not all that conducive to militantism... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2008 : 22:48:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Hmmm... PZ Myers certainly is an out-spoken atheist; maybe not a 'militant atheist' but, after all, with the possible exception of Dawkins, atheism is not all that conducive to militantism... |
The "framing" is that an out-spoken atheist is a militant atheist. Atheists who aren't willing to keep quiet may as well be bombing churches, for all the difference matters to the anti-militant-atheist crowd. The fundamentalists, especially, see little difference between denying God and eating live babies (one of their favorite questions is "what stops an atheist from father-raping and mother-killing? They have no moral base whatsoever"). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 11:03:25 [Permalink]
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I actually agree with the core of Nisbet's article.
PZ is quite easy to demonize and stereotype as a bitter angry man that hates Christians.
With all due respect; that is not the best strategy to convince the Christian majority to actually listen to what atheists have to say and start treating them with respect.
Sure; PZ has perfect right to do what he does and sure, atheist should not have to make any special efforts to earn the respect and tolerance that religious people receive a priori. But reality is what it is and I suspect people like Grothe are doing more for the acceptance of atheists in the US. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 11:14:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
With all due respect; that is not the best strategy to convince the Christian majority to actually listen to what atheists have to say and start treating them with respect. |
With all due respect, I'm not sure you've correctly identified PZ's goals. One of the biggest problems I have with Nisbet is that he keeps saying PZ's strategy isn't an effective one. But that's not true. It's not just effective for Nisbet's aims. It's perfectly effecting for PZ's aims. And, yes, part of that includes pissing people off.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 11:45:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But reality is what it is and I suspect people like Grothe are doing more for the acceptance of atheists in the US. |
Except that we can be pretty sure that more than 50% of the population will demonize and stereotype Grothe for little more than the fact that he's an open homosexual.
Atheists' competition is with lies. Find me the most-upstanding, nice-looking, pleasant, heterosexual and charismatic atheist spokesperson in the world, and the theists will compare him to Satan.
We gain nothing by being deferential or otherwise hiding our resentment at being second-class citizens in the face of the massive, immoral propaganda campaign being waged against us. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:20:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
[ Find me the most-upstanding, nice-looking, pleasant, heterosexual and charismatic atheist spokesperson in the world, and the theists will compare him to Satan. |
Which is, arguably, so blatantly untrue and insulting that the general public will tire of it and see these fundamentalists as what they are; bigoted hateful individuals.
At which point; the public will start taking the side of the atheists...
I truly believe that, being nice, out-spoken but non-agressive, and certainly not insulting, is the best way to go if your goal is to help atheism being generally accepted by the public at large.
This is indeed probably not PY Myers' goal and certainly; he does not have any responsibility to serve this particular goal.
But I can understand Nisbet annoyance at Myers' attitude, counter-productive for his goals... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:22:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
With all due respect; that is not the best strategy to convince the Christian majority to actually listen to what atheists have to say and start treating them with respect. |
A lot of people have opinions about what will/will not work. What we don't know is what will work. Well we do know that continuing along the same old lines isn't going to have much of an effect. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:38:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I actually agree with the core of Nisbet's article.
PZ is quite easy to demonize and stereotype as a bitter angry man that hates Christians.
With all due respect; that is not the best strategy to convince the Christian majority to actually listen to what atheists have to say and start treating them with respect.
Sure; PZ has perfect right to do what he does and sure, atheist should not have to make any special efforts to earn the respect and tolerance that religious people receive a priori. But reality is what it is and I suspect people like Grothe are doing more for the acceptance of atheists in the US.
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Much of what Myers has responded to were lies and unfair treatment directed at him by some people on the religious side of things. He granted an interview for a film he is in because the producers lied about what the film was about. Then, he was denied entry into a screening of the film, that he is in, even though he obtained the tickets legitimately. How dare Nisbet comment PZ's behavior with regard to that film. It wasn't Nisbet who was lied to. Myers had every right to be pissed off.
Myers has taken a position on the some of most outrageous behavior by some people of faith. Things like death threats directed at a guy who took a communion wafer from church, for example.
Never once have I read anything by Myers saying that all religious people are bad or stupid, and that only atheists have brains.
I have no problem with Nisbet wanting to approach people of faith the way he wants to. But he has no corner on the market on the best way to deal with the crazies on the other side.
And don't get me wrong. More generally, I am closer in thought to Nisbet's approach than what he has made up about Myers approach to people of faith. That's because more generally Christians aren't a bunch of frothing loons. But some are, and they need to be dealt with. How do you deal with people who flat out lie or make death threats in the name of religion? What's the nice approach to those people?
Nisbet would do well to do what he does and stop criticizing people like Myers. Hell, just look at the picture he chose of Myers in Dave's post. Would a fair minded person have chosen that picture?
And what is really galling is this "controversy" over who is right is completely unnecessary.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:46:28 [Permalink]
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True; but, let's consider another minority group: the gayz.
There are similarities. Both groups are minorities. Both suffer from prejudice from the general public and, in both case, the prejudice is spear-headed by the religious right for religious reasons.
I would argue, however, that, despite some setbacks; too many propositions 8 and too many Fred 'evil fucktard' Phelps; the situation of homosexuals in our society has been improving greatly in the last decades. The situation certainly is still far from perfect, but I definitively think that things are going the right way, toward more and more tolerance.
Already, fundamentalists have had to adapt their message. No longer can they present homosexuals are 'pervert' or 'abominations' but, instead, started to 'condemn homosexuality rather than homosexuals themselves'.
Once again, the fight is not over yet, but the forces of enlightenment seems to be on the winning side.
Now, the questions is; how did homosexuals achieve this PR/education success and, can this be replicated by other minorities.
I do think that most of the progress was achieved not by antagonizing the heterosexuals but by leaving their live and illustrating that homosexuals are decent individuals which are, really, not all that different from the rest of the population... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:57:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Which is, arguably, so blatantly untrue and insulting that the general public will tire of it and see these fundamentalists as what they are; bigoted hateful individuals.
At which point; the public will start taking the side of the atheists...
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Right, things will change if we just keep quiet long enough... I strongly disagree with such a strategy. In fact, I view it as a non-strategy capable of accomplishing nothing.
Also, I doubt very much that Nisbet would count "atheism being generally accepted by the public at large" as one of his goals. I think he could care less about atheism and sees the issue entirely as an incendiary distraction. I would say that it is one of PZ's incidental goals, however.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 12:59:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Now, the questions is; how did homosexuals achieve this PR/education success and, can this be replicated by other minorities.
I do think that most of the progress was achieved not by antagonizing the heterosexuals but by leaving their live and illustrating that homosexuals are decent individuals which are, really, not all that different from the rest of the population... |
Antagonizing the straights is exactly what they did, in part:We're here, we're queer, get used to it. They were also portrayed in many movies as stereotypically harmless buffoons. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 13:09:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Now, the questions is; how did homosexuals achieve this PR/education success and, can this be replicated by other minorities. |
Yes, that's the entire point. Gays began to achieve gain in civil rights only after they began to organize and demand them. It's not like the sodomy laws repealed themselves, or that heterosexuals woke one up one day and said "Hey, let's start paying medical benefits to gay couples."
I do think that most of the progress was achieved not by antagonizing the heterosexuals but by leaving their live and illustrating that homosexuals are decent individuals which are, really, not all that different from the rest of the population...
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Except many people consider the mere exposure to gay people to be "antagonistic." The most common refrain heard from bigots is "I don't care what people do in their own bedrooms, but why do I have to be subjected to seeing gay people all the time?" They'd much prefer it if the homosexuals hid indoors and stopped marching proudly in public parades or interacting as normal characters on sitcoms. That's part of the nefarious Gay Agenda, don't you know, to promote homosexuality as normal and acceptable. And while bigots would all gays to sit down and shut up, the homosexual rights movement has gained traction because they refuse to do so. Trying to appease those who hate you accomplishes nothing. Gays found success only after they started to openly identify as homosexual and demand to be treated with respect.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/08/2008 13:11:32 |
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed! ...Part 2
