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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2008 : 12:45:14 [Permalink]
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Here's something. I'm not going bother to dig into it any deeper, but this'll give anyone who wants to do so a place to start.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 14:35:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Ok, I know practically all members of SFN are against the death penalty. I see death penalty as a symptom that there is something wrong with the mindset of the general population.
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Mabuse, would you mind laying out in a few dozen paragraphs exactly what your Critically-Thought-Out, logically defensible, reasons are for unconditionally opposing the death penalty? |
Yes.
| Also, I would really be interested in hearing a precise definition of exactly what you consider to be the "general population" of the United States. |
People old enough to vote, to vote out politicians who are ardent supporters of the death penalty.
The most important causes for not having capital punishment has already been mentioned in this thread.
You used the word general, and that is what caught my eye - along with your comment about America apparently being a lost cause. |
When barely half of the population bothers to vote, and half of those can't be bothered to keep informed of what they are voting for, you're fast sinking ship not entitled to call itself the greatest democracy in the world (just the thought of it makes me giggle, and every time I actually hear an American say it out loud, I'm on the verge of hysterical laughter).
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 18:41:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Marf.....
| The death penalty is wrong not because all human life is sacred, but because human legal systems are thus far inherently flawed, and the potential for killing an innocent is too great. |
How great, Marf? Statistically over a good long time window? How many innocent, or possibly innocent accused perpetrators of capital crimes have been erroneously executed?
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It seems to me that one would be enough to rethink the death penalty.
Click on to the West Memphis Three in my signature.
The very idea that a person could be executed based on the evidence presented in that case is all I need to conclude that the death penalty is not such a good idea. Not when it is possible for a idiot judge and a bigoted jury to make that call.
If even one person was released from death row based on DNA evidence, and we know that has happened more than once, then it stands to reason that at least a few innocent people have been executed. That's a few too many, don't ya think?
Beyond that, I find it hard to reconcile the image we are supposed to have of ourselves as belonging to a civilized society, and a society that just happens to condone state sponsored murder. I think we can do better.
Edited.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 20:34:09 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| How about the fact that the death penalty is wrong because it does nothing to deter crime or rehabilitate criminals? Our justice system is allegedly not based upon retribution |
I don't know, Dave. I have some question as to the deterrant effect of life imprisonment, and the recidivism to violent and murderous activity in prison of many convicted-of-murder lifers speaks negatively of the rehabilitative influence of prison on the murder-prone personality. Unless you know of some statistics that can demonstrate that life imprisonment is indeed a more deterring influence on wannabe murderers than execution, what's the point in even considering those (deterrance or rehabilitation) factors when structuring a death penalty ethic?
Personally, I don't see much value to society in either the death penalty or life imprisonment for those capital offenders whose conviction is in little doubt; and in order to reason to the core of this conundrum, I feel we have to begin with those particular individuals.
The undoubted failings of the justice system in apprehending and convicting innocent people is indeed a serious problem, but it has considerably different parameters and involves many other value judgments than does the core problem of what to do with the unquestioned capital offender. I do not mean to dismiss such situations. Here, I would however, like to address the strongest possible instance of a crime and criminal possibly deserving of state administered execution.
The core problem is the undoubted premeditated murder mindset, calculating killer with no hint of insanity, (in the legal sense), and for whose crime there is abundant unquestioned valid evidence - and an exceedingly small possibility that a forensic error has occured in his/her conviction. And the crime must be horrendous - cruelty, sadism, utter lack of mercy or normal human consideration of life value. Murder for greed, profit, power, convenience (unwanted mate or child), infanticide, repeated rape and murder, etc. Probably a serial killer with motive for each consecutive rape and murder.
Take a situation with all the above factors as the case in point, and make a case for life imprisonment without getting dangerously close to theological "value of life" arguments!
All comments welcome! |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 20:36:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Who was it who said that the way to judge a society is by how they treat their prisoners?
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"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons" --Fyodor Dostoyevsky, who spent 4 years in a Siberian prison camp.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 21:03:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I don't know, Dave. I have some question as to the deterrant effect of life imprisonment, and the recidivism to violent and murderous activity in prison of many convicted-of-murder lifers speaks negatively of the rehabilitative influence of prison on the murder-prone personality. Unless you know of some statistics that can demonstrate that life imprisonment is indeed a more deterring influence on wannabe murderers than execution, what's the point in even considering those (deterrance or rehabilitation) factors when structuring a death penalty ethic? |
Good point: the only reason we would have left in favor of the death penalty if we reject deterrance is retribution (because the death penalty isn't for rehab). Revenge against the wrong person can hardly be considered ethical. In most states (so far as I know), confessing to a death-penalty crime takes the death penalty out of consideration, so we're left with predominantly people on death row who proclaim their innocence, and we know some of those are wrongly accused.
So, when the state takes its revenge, what good does it do if in doing so it allows the real criminal to go free? Are the greiving, blood-thirsty families of the victims going to be satisfied with, "well, we're 99% sure that we just snuffed the right guy..."| The core problem is the undoubted premeditated murder mindset, calculating killer with no hint of insanity, (in the legal sense), and for whose crime there is abundant unquestioned valid evidence - and an exceedingly small possibility that a forensic error has occured in his/her conviction. And the crime must be horrendous - cruelty, sadism, utter lack of mercy or normal human consideration of life value. Murder for greed, profit, power, convenience (unwanted mate or child), infanticide, repeated rape and murder, etc. Probably a serial killer with motive for each consecutive rape and murder. |
Oddly enough, that sort of person generally admits his crimes once caught. At least, that's the sense I got from reading books written by former FBI agents who've caught such people. Of course, they're also generally nusty-cuckoo, feeling compelled to do what they do and feeling relieved when someone stops them.
I wonder if its possible to make the case that people on death row are usually either (A) genuinely innocent, (B) have undiagnosed insanity, (C) dumb for not copping a plea, (D) victims of bad lawyering or (E) people who did things like kill a cop (which I think is an automatic death penalty in a couple of states, regardless of criminal record).| Take a situation with all the above factors as the case in point, and make a case for life imprisonment without getting dangerously close to theological "value of life" arguments! |
If they're dead, they can't write a best seller about their own crimes, and so the victim(s) (or their families) will miss out on the advances and royalties. The criminals generally don't get to keep the money any more.
Edited to add: Thanks, H.! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 23:03:42 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse.....
Mabuse, would you mind laying out in a few dozen paragraphs exactly what your Critically-Thought-Out, logically defensible, reasons are for unconditionally opposing the death penalty?
Yes. |
Why?| The most important causes for not having capital punishment has already been mentioned in this thread. |
You have none of your own? |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 23:33:40 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Here's some grist from Filth for your mill! Texas death penalty cases cost more than non-capital cases
That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. ("Executions Cost Texas Millions," Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992) |
If true, and borne out by other analyses, it is a sensible reason for shutting sane people up in little rooms until they go insane. Then we can lock them up in asylums instead of prisons!
But to just keep monsters alive so they can write books (probably mostly illiterate anyway) doesn't make a lot of sense to me! How about that "value of a human life" argument, Dave?
Dave says:| I wonder if its possible to make the case that people on death row are usually either (A) genuinely innocent, (B) have undiagnosed insanity, (C) dumb for not copping a plea, (D) victims of bad lawyering or (E) people who did things like kill a cop (which I think is an automatic death penalty in a couple of states, regardless of criminal record). |
(A) Some are! Shit happens!
(B)Insanity is a legal term. It is not diagnosed, it is defined!
(C)If they live by copping a plea, and they don't cop, they want to die! Why not kill them? Makes them happy and solves the problem! Dumb? Too much butt-fucking makes you stupid!
(D)All lawyers are bad!
(E)The stupidity of a mandatory death penalty irrespective of motive, circumstance, etc., for killing a cop leaves me totally without retort! Really stupid shit happens!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 03:30:20 [Permalink]
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And off we go, heigh-ho!
Ga. execution would be first since Supreme Court ruling
By SHANNON McCAFFREY – 2 hours ago
ATLANTA (AP) — Georgia moved forward with preparations to execute a man convicted of killing his girlfriend, who on Tuesday night could become the first inmate put to death since the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of lethal injection.
Barring a last-minute reprieve from the courts, William Earl Lynd will be put to death at 7 p.m., making him the first prisoner executed since September, when the high court took up a challenge to lethal injection and effectively halted all executions nationwide for seven months.
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I would have thought it'd be Texas, where they have W's record to uphold, but I'm sure the Lame Star State will make up for lost time quickly enough.
As an aside, this guy has been two decades on Death Row.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 06:26:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
But to just keep monsters alive so they can write books (probably mostly illiterate anyway) doesn't make a lot of sense to me! |
It'd help the economy.| How about that "value of a human life" argument, Dave? |
You said, "without getting dangerously close to theological "value of life" arguments!" I see no need to go anywhere close.| (A) Some are! Shit happens! |
Say that when you get accused.| (B)Insanity is a legal term. It is not diagnosed, it is defined! |
Irrelevant.| (C)If they live by copping a plea, and they don't cop, they want to die! |
Where is your evidence for that?| Too much butt-fucking makes you stupid! |
Where is your evidence for that? | (E)The stupidity of a mandatory death penalty irrespective of motive, circumstance, etc., for killing a cop leaves me totally without retort! Really stupid shit happens! |
Way to miss the point. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 08:08:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dr. Mabuse.....
Mabuse, would you mind laying out in a few dozen paragraphs exactly what your Critically-Thought-Out, logically defensible, reasons are for unconditionally opposing the death penalty?
Yes. |
Why? |
I don't feel like wasting time reinventing the wheel when several people here have already given you the answers.
| The most important causes for not having capital punishment has already been mentioned in this thread. |
You have none of your own? |
None that haven't been mentioned already. Maybe I can think of more if I set my mind to it, but really...
The very fact that innocent people are murdered by the state because of flaws in the system should be enough. Would you accept being executed because someone else screwed up?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 20:31:55 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
OK, Dave, I'll get serious if you'll get serious.Originally posted by bngbuck
| But to just keep monsters alive so they can write books (probably mostly illiterate anyway) doesn't make a lot of sense to me! |
It'd help the economy. |
It would not help the economy enough to pay for their lifetime incarceration, so the economic argument doesn't hold. Let's address the real question. Does it really cost the state a good deal more to convict and eventually execute a real killer (no shadow of a doubt as to guilt), than to pay his room and board for the rest of his life? With respect to the type of case and criminal I stipulated, is there any other issue other than the economic one?Originally posted by bngbuck| How about that "value of a human life" argument, Dave? |
You said, "without getting dangerously close to theological "value of life" arguments!" I see no need to go anywhere close. |
OK, I'm not going to be able to drive you into that corner, but we have to come up with one of these three.....
For an undoubted monster killer
(a)Dominant argument for life imprisonment
(b)Dominant argument for execution
(c)A third alternative
....or else nit pick the premises to death. I'm ready to say that, for the no-question undoubted monster killer, who is legally sane, the only issue is the economic one!Originally posted by bngbuck| (A) Some are! Shit happens! |
Say that when you get accused. |
I would say anything if I got accused, but it wouldn't affect my circumstances, which are what we are talking about. The fact is, that in an imperfect world with an imperfect justice system, there will be mistakes. Right now, I am trying to discuss with you the situation of someone who is guilty of a heinous crime and what should be done with him/her. I would intend later, if this thread develops to that point, to discuss the situation of indeterminate guilt.Originally posted by bngbuck| (B)Insanity is a legal term. It is not diagnosed, it is defined! |
Irrelevant. |
Not irrelevant. If the accused is defined insane, he is facing neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment, rather confinement in an institution for the criminally insane. So she is not on death row and therefore not a subject for our discussion. If the accused perp has an undiagnosed mental illness that prevents distinquishing right from wrong, he should have been defined as insane and was wrongly sent to prison and death row. But again, he is not a subject of our discussion, as we have agreed that we were talking about totally proven, non-insane monster murderers!as originally posted by bngbuck| (C)If they live by copping a plea, and they don't cop, they want to die! |
Where is your evidence for that? |
Here is the reasoning:
Dave guessed that people might be on death row because they were too dumb to cop a plea and receive life imprisonment.
1. A person dumb enough to not cop a plea would very likely not be a premeditated murdering monster, rather a mentally ill, or severely retarded person who, non compos mentis, is not responsible for his actions and is a victim of a malfunctioning justice system. This is not the kind of murderer we are addressing here.
2. A person who is not mentally deficient, not mentally ill, but is truly guilty of a heinous crime and is apparently rationally choosing to die, either (a) has been stricken with remorse and wants to make it right with Jesus or some such shit, or (b) feels that a life of being repeatedly butt-fucked (and a few other indignities) is worse than death. (I believe there are rational people that would choose death over life imprisonment) He is the kind of perp we are concerned with here, and he truly wants to die (maybe for a pretty good reason)Originally quoted by bngbuck| Too much butt-fucking makes you stupid! |
Where is your evidence for that? |
Certainly not personal. This was smart-ass. Or dumb-ass. Illogical. A person on death row has very likely been segregated and isolated from personal contact with other prisoners during his entire incarceration, so he could not have been crazed by sexual abuse in prison. He possibly could have anticipated such abuse and it could have been a factor in his choosing to die, but this is admittedly unlikely and a weak argument. Point withdrawn, my tactical error! (Take "butt-fucking" as a metaphor for prison life}| Originally posted by bngbuck |
I think what I am driving at here is that a court-appointed lawyer may well be lacking in sufficient persuasion skills to sway a jury, but it takes an O.J. Simpson to afford a dream team that can turn a jury upsidedown. I would hazard a guess that most capital punishment offenders have had poor legal representation. And this would be a large factor in evaluating whether a person charged with a capital crime on ambivilant evidence should ever receive the death penalty.
Here we are talking about an undoubted murderer with enough evidence to convict even if he didn't have any legal representation, so the quality of the lawyering is moot. Not a bad lawyer, just an unnecessary lawyer. Lawyer quality becomes very important when considering those convicted with inconclusive evidence.| (E)The stupidity of a mandatory death penalty irrespective of motive, circumstance, etc., for killing a cop leaves me totally without retort! Really stupid shit happens! |
Way to miss the point. |
Let's find the point. Dave states....| (E) people who did things like kill a cop (which I think is an automatic death penalty in a couple of states, regardless of criminal record). |
.....which is to say that it is likely that the poor bastard that kills a cop for any reason is not going to receive his constitutionally-guaranteed-innocent-until-proven-guilty justice. This is likely to be true, and a case could be made for exempting accused cop-killers from death-penalty sentencing. on the grounds that they cannot, de facto receive a fair trial. I have to think about that one for a while! Maybe baby-raper/killers are precluded from justice, also?
I am left with the question: For the fairly convicted, unquestioned overwhelming evidence, premeditated, monstrous crime perpetuated by a clearly sane, non-retarded, non-mentally ill murderer; is there any rationale for life imprisonment as opposed to execution other than the (supposed) fact that it costs the state less to imprison than execute?
If there is no other rationale other that cost, what if we discover after careful, objective analysis that the reverse is true? Do we succumb to the critique of pure reason and declare that for the unquestioned monster killer, execution shoulf be mandatory?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 13:09:00 [Permalink]
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bngbuck wrote: | How great, Marf? Statistically over a good long time window? How many innocent, or possibly innocent accused perpetrators of capital crimes have been erroneously executed? |
When we have zero good reasons to have the death penalty in the first place, one innocent life taken by the state is enough of a reason to not have it.
| But to just keep monsters alive so they can write books (probably mostly illiterate anyway) doesn't make a lot of sense to me! |
A person is more than the crimes they have committed, even if those crimes are extraordinarily heinous. Also, a life in a cell is still a life which can be appreciated. Human beings have an amazing ability to adapt to limitations, such as quadriplegics who after a couple years of adjustment end up just as happy on average as everyone else. And I can't imagine a cell more limiting than being unable to control most of one's body.
Also, prison should be a place of reform, not merely a cell. Especially for prisoners who are going to be out in society again some day. But really for all of them, since they are all human beings.
Your attitude about prisoners writing books reminds me of censorship and book burning, as if the world would be better off not dealing with certain written expressions and opinions, rather than confronting them head on.
Yes, and as human beings with intelligence and the ability to choose our actions, we have a responsibility to try to reduce the amount of shit that happens.
| Insanity is a legal term. It is not diagnosed, it is defined! |
Insanity is a legal term, but Dave was obviously referring to mental illness. People with mental illnesses are much more likely to commit violent crimes. For example, Texas has executed lots of people with PTSD. George Bush was governor and refused to stop the execution of a Vietnam vet who committed a murder after years of suffering with PTSD.
Lots of people who are executed were minors when they committed their crimes, and we all know that teenagers act more impulsively than adults. George Bush also allowed the execution of 7 such individuals while he was governor of Texas, though there have been many more.
Actually, people who cant afford their own lawyer and get court-appointed ones are far more likely to be found guilty, and far more likely to get the death penalty in the first place. So the system also makes the poor more likely to get the death penalty – another reason it is bad.
| The stupidity of a mandatory death penalty irrespective of motive, circumstance, etc., for killing a cop leaves me totally without retort! Really stupid shit happens! |
No kidding, Sherlock. The point is that the whole legal system is inherently flawed. Since we know that, we shouldn't have a death penalty. The state can undo killing someone. The state can't apologize and pay retribution to dead men and women.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Cruel, But Not Unusual
