|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:48:24 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Bill scott
I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place." |
He stated already that there is no such example. However, why does he need one? If I asserted that the world would be a better place if people would stop murdering each other, I could obviously not back it up with an actual example of a murder-free society. Yet, it should be obvious that a society that has no murders is better than one that does have murders. |
But Leo is applying that a godless society (one where the majority does not believe in God) would be a society with less murder ("better place") then a religious society where the majority does believe in God. I am simply asking him if he has any examples or evidence to offer up, otherwise this is nothing but his own speculation and personal beliefs. |
You're missing the point. He's arguing that a godless society would be better than a theistic one. You wanted him to name an example of one, implying that there were no such examples. But, just like there are no examples of a murder-free society, it doesn't mean that we can't logically speculate that a murder-free society is better than one with murder. So your best line of questioning is to ask why he thinks that a godless society would be a better place.
|
Your missing the point. First I never implied there were no such examples. I simply asked if he had some examples to go along with his notion as I was curious what he might say. Second, I pointed out that you are both speculating that you can tie an atheistic society into a society with less murder. If your not speculating then can you give me an example or evidence for this conclusion?
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/12/2008 08:49:09 |
 |
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 09:05:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
It probably would be, as the murders committed for religious reasons would decline with the religious population. Of course, humans, basically being human and having all of the greed, envy, insanity & so forth that goes with the territory, murders would never become non-existent.
|
As far as the USA, which is the focal point of the discussion, I know of very few cases where people kill over religion. Not to say that it never happens, it just don't happen a lot compared with the rest of the reasons people murder here in the states It is speculation to assume that the murder rate will go down as religious folks decline as they will be replaced by non-religious folks and here in the states, which is the subject of our conversation, most murders are for a non-religious matters. So I still don't see any evidence that religious folks are holding this country back from becoming a "better place."
|
Oh please, Bill, the woods are full of 'em! Not to mention those of history, which actually make Hitler look almost benevolent.
Relax, I said: Almost.
Well, lessee, trying to get a religious fiction taught in public schools in place of science; trying to get their symbols in place on all public venues; lying shamelessly about scientific endevor and trying to insert themselves into political discourse in defiance of the Constitution, and so forth -- generally trying to dumb down the populace and take us back to the good ol' days of heretic burnings. And don't get me started on 'faith healing,' which seems to take a couple of lives each year, mostly children. That we know of, anyway.
Really Bill, if there is such a thing as "The Great Satan," it is religion.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 09:18:45 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Your missing the point. First I never implied there were no such examples. I simply asked if he had some examples to go along with his notion as I was curious what he might say. Second, I pointed out that you are both speculating that you can tie an atheistic society into a society with less murder. If your not speculating then can you give me an example or evidence for this conclusion? |
Ugh. So were you seriously under the impression that there exist completely atheistic nations? If so, then you need to do a little reading, and if not, then I'm correct.
And you have completely misunderstood my point!! I'm not suggesting-- nor have I ever suggested-- that an atheistic society would have less murder!! I brought up the point about murder to demonstrate that we don't necessarily need real-world examples to know whether something is true.
We can't offer examples of actual atheistic nations. Thus, a person might say that since we can't offer and such examples, then to suggest that an atheistic nation would be "better" (by whatever metric) than the US is sheer fantasy.
I would counter that by saying that just as we can't offer examples of actual atheistic nations, we also can't offer examples of nations that are completely free of murders. However, despite the fact that we can show no examples of a murder-free society, we can nevertheless speculate that were such a nation to exist, it would be "better" (by probably a number of metrics) than one where there is murder.
But this is an obvious example. The case of religion and a religious-free society is of course much more difficult to make.
So a much more fruitful line of inquiry into leo's argument isn't "Oh yeah? Well show me an example!" Rather, it's "What makes you think that an atheistic society would be better than the US?" |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/12/2008 09:20:35 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 09:52:38 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
Ok Bill, let's trim a little fat off this hog. You know perfectly well that there has never been a purely atheistic society. Ever. |
Just as there is no purely religious society either. And I wasn't asking for a purely atheistic example. I was asking Leo if he had an example where the majority of the population of a country held no belief in God and was a "better place" then the USA? I asked this in response to his assertion that the majority of those in the USA believing in God was holding the USA back from becoming a "better place." |
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
Page 11 lists a graph of European countries and their respective beliefs in God.
In Finland, 41% believe in God, Denmark 34%, Norway 32%, and Sweden 23%.
In Sweden there are no religious checks on politicians running for parliament, because people don't care about religion, they just want the politicians to do their God-damn job.
I submit that any Scandinavian country is better to live in than USA.
In Sweden there are about 700 people staying at homeless shelters and another 500 living on the streets. Out of 9 Million citizens. What's the statistics for USA?
From an earlier post:
Yes, about 75% are registered members of the Church of Sweden, but that is because historically Christianity was a state sponsored religion, and citizens were automatically registered as member of the church at birth.
Did you even read the article you referred to? It states right there, plain and simple:
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[74] 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god"
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 10:05:46 [Permalink]
|
Good work Doctor,
On an interesting side note,
Missouri Executive Order #44
Copy of a Military Order by the Governor of Missouri. HEAD QUARTERS, MILITIA, City of Jefferson, Oct. 27, 1838. Sir:--Since the order of the morning to you, directing you to cause 400 mounted men to be raised within your division, I have received by Amos Rees, Esq. of Ray and Wiley E. Williams Esq., one of my aids, information of the most appalling character, which entirely changes the face of things, and places the Mormons in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this state. Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operations with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary, for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so to any extent you may consider necessary. I have just issued orders to Maj. Gen. Wallock, of Marion County, to raise 500 men and march them to the northern part of Daviess, and there unite with Gen. Doniphan, of Clay, who has been ordered with 500 men to proceed to the same point, for the purpose of intercepting the retreat of the Mormons to the North. They have been directed to communicate with you by express. You can also communicate with them if you find it necessary. Instead, therefore, of proceeding, as at first directed, to reinstate the citizens of Daviess in their homes, you will proceed immediately to Richmond, and there operate against the Mormons. Brig. Gen. Parks, of Ray, has been ordered to have four hundred men of his brigade in readiness to join you at Richmond. The whole force will be placed under your command. I am very respectfully Your Obedient Servant Lilburn W. BOGGS Command-in-chief. To Gen. John B. Clark., Fayette, Howard County
It was repealed 138 years later at least, and they're not even atheists. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 10:14:10 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by Cuneiformist |
| Ugh. So were you seriously under the impression that there exist completely atheistic nations? If so, then you need to do a little reading, and if not, then I'm correct. |
I never implied it nor denied it. I simply asked Leo if he had any examples or evidence to back up his "better place" notion and he said "no" and then went on about the USSR being a religious people. And for that matter I know of no completely religious nations either.
And you have completely misunderstood my point!! I'm not suggesting-- nor have I ever suggested-- that an atheistic society would have less murder!! I brought up the point about murder to demonstrate that we don't necessarily need real-world examples to know whether something is true.
We can't offer examples of actual atheistic nations. Thus, a person might say that since we can't offer and such examples, then to suggest that an atheistic nation would be "better" (by whatever metric) than the US is sheer fantasy.
I would counter that by saying that just as we can't offer examples of actual atheistic nations, we also can't offer examples of nations that are completely free of murders. However, despite the fact that we can show no examples of a murder-free society, we can nevertheless speculate that were such a nation to exist, it would be "better" (by probably a number of metrics) than one where there is murder. |
But that has been my point from the beginning. If Leo doesn't have any examples or evidence to point to then his notion is just pure speculation on on a skeptics website. That was/is/remains my point. I am sure the next phase will be where we disagreeing on the speculation involved. Etc... etc.... etc....
And your mudding the water. Of course the vast majority would speculate that a murder free society would be a "better place" then a murderous society, so what? Unless your implying that you think the atheistic society would have less murders then a religious one you have an apples to oranges comparison. Speculate? I can speculate that our planet is much better off with the sun then without. Big deal. I would speculate that most in the US would speculate that a God fearing society would be a "better place" then an atheistic one. Does that mean you will now accept the notion? I doubt it.
But this is an obvious example. The case of religion and a religious-free society is of course much more difficult to make.
So a much more fruitful line of inquiry into leo's argument isn't "Oh yeah? Well show me an example!" Rather, it's "What makes you think that an atheistic society would be better than the US?" |
Yes, but this a skeptic website so naturally I am going to ask whether he has any evidence or examples for his notion before I ask for his anecdotal thoughts. I am pretty sure I already know his anecdotal thoughts but I had no idea if or what evidence or examples he would parade out, so I asked. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 10:32:14 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Second, I pointed out that you are both speculating that you can tie an atheistic society into a society with less murder. If your not speculating then can you give me an example or evidence for this conclusion?
|
Murder Statistics (murders per million):USA:..... 59
Sweden:.. 23,9
Norway:... 7,8
Denmark:.. 7,9
Finland:. 27,5
Iceland:. 10,3
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/12/2008 10:34:46 |
|
|
|
leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 10:34:19 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by leoofno |
| OK, so Bill want to know of some place better off than the religious USA. How about 11? Check out the Human Development Index (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index>) which shows that there are 11 countries which are arguably "better" than the United States in terms of "life expectancy, literacy, education, and GDP per capita." Many are highly secular nations in Europe, just as I had speculated. Only two, as far as I know, are fairly religious (Ireland at #5 and Australia at #3). Some religious countries I can think of, like Mexico, don't do so well. |
Wait a minute. Your going to label the former USSR a religious people and then label Europe as "highly secular"?
#1 Iceland 82.1% members of the National Church of Iceland. 2.6% not members of any religious group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Religion
#2 Nearly 83% of Norwegians are members of the state Church of Norway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Religion
#3 Australia you acknowledge as religious
#4 Canada I could not find any religion status.
#5 Ireland you acknowledge as religious
#6 Sweden Today about 75% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden (Lutheran),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Religion
#7 Switzerland Christianity is the predominant religion of Switzerland, divided between the Catholic Church (41.8% of the population) and various Protestant denominations (40%). Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Albanians mostly from Kosovo and Eastern Orthodoxy (1.8%) as sizeable minority religions. The 2005 Eurobarometer poll found 48% to be theist , 39% expressing belief in "a spirit or life force", 9% atheist and 4% agnostic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Religion
| I'm not sure where all this gets us. No country has ever had a majority of "rational thinkers", or been run by such. Also, the ranking of the US may have less to do with Religion than some other factor. Correlation does not equal causation. |
I can say the same thing then about Mexico and why she ain't doing so good.
|
I was actually refering to the US's reletively poor performance compared to the others. My point is that since correlation does not equal causation, one can't assume from these statistics that religion or atheism has any bearing on the rankings. Hence, I'm not sure where this gets us.
| I just find it hard to believe that someone is better off believing in a fantasy than in reality. And God is, based on all the evidence I have ever seen, most assuridly a fantasy. |
Yet you hold to your notion that non-religious countries are "better places" then religious countries without any evidence.
|
You wanted examples of non-religious nations that were better off than the US, and I provided it. Many of the European countries are considered to be "highly secular" by Christian conservatives who bemoan the fact that religion does not often play a role in their political processes. Do you really need refrences? I can look some up if so. I find it really funny that you counter these examples by claiming that the countries are actually religious. 
|
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:02:34 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse |
| In Finland, 41% believe in God, |
According to a 2005 Eurobarometer Poll </wiki/Eurobarometer>,[37] 41 percent of Finnish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 41 percent answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 16 percent that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".
16% hardly makes an atheistic majority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland#Religion
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll </wiki/Eurobarometer> 2005,[58] 31% of Danish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 49% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 19% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#Religion
19% hardly makes the atheist a majority.
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005, 32% of Norwegian citizens responded that "they believe there is a god," whereas 47% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 17% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force."[27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Religion
17% Haley makes an atheistic majority.
I submit that any Scandinavian country is better to live in than USA.
In Sweden there are about 700 people staying at homeless shelters and another 500 living on the streets. Out of 9 Million citizens. What's the statistics for USA? |
Many of the homeless in the US get three hot meals a day and a bed to sleep on without an once of work in return. They have no motivation for not being homeless. It's more by choice and is almost a carrer move around here.
Yes, about 75% are registered members of the Church of Sweden, but that is because historically Christianity was a state sponsored religion, and citizens were automatically registered as member of the church at birth. |
Did you even read the article you referred to? It states right there, plain and simple:
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[74] 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god"
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll |
</wiki/Eurobarometer> 2005,[74] 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Religion
Did you even read any of this. We were looking for a country with an atheistic majority and they were a better place then the USA. In all but one of your examples those who believed in a God out numbered those who did not. In the one case of Sweden it was a dead heat at 23% a piece, unless you count those who believe in spirituality and not just a certain God. Then it goes to 76% to 23% against the atheists. Again, even in the "godless" nations those who believe in God out weigh those who do not.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:07:04 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
Second, I pointed out that you are both speculating that you can tie an atheistic society into a society with less murder. If your not speculating then can you give me an example or evidence for this conclusion?
|
Murder Statistics (murders per million):USA:..... 59
Sweden:.. 23,9
Norway:... 7,8
Denmark:.. 7,9
Finland:. 27,5
Iceland:. 10,3
|
So what? None of these countries have an atheistic majority which was what we were looking for. Oh, and they had to be a "better place" then the USA as well. And that only would have been eveidence anyway as Leo's notion was that the US would become a better place then itself if the majority were godless. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:14:18 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by leoofno |
Yet you hold to your notion that non-religious countries are "better places" then religious countries without any evidence. |
You wanted examples of non-religious nations that were better off than the US, and I provided it. Many of the European countries are considered to be "highly secular" by Christian conservatives who bemoan the fact that religion does not often play a role in their political processes. Do you really need refrences? I can look some up if so. I find it really funny that you counter these examples by claiming that the countries are actually religious. |
The numbers don't lie. In the first seven examples you gave me the people who believe in God out weigh those who do not. Hardly an atheistic majority. We were looking for a country who's majority did not believe in God and they were a "better place" then the USA. Remember? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:36:44 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
</wiki/Eurobarometer> 2005,[74] 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Religion
Did you even read any of this. We were looking for a country with an atheistic majority and they were a better place then the USA. In all but one of your examples those who believed in a God out numbered those who did not. In the one case of Sweden it was a dead heat at 23% a piece, unless you count those who believe in spirituality and not just a certain God. Then it goes to 76% to 23% against the atheists. Again, even in the "godless" nations those who believe in God out weigh those who do not.
|
You have shown before that you lack English comprehension skills, so I'm not surprised at your attempt to twist the numbers. Lying-for-Jesus syndrome will also explain it.
Atheist means "non-theist" ie Someone who does not believe in God (or religion).
The answer "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" is a very fuzzy formulation, which could encompass almost any concept that does not include a deity, including professed atheists. In fact, the survey do not even use the word "atheist" for non-religious/non-god categories. Jedi do not believe in god but would be included in this category. I couldn't even guess guess if Wiccans would choose this alternative. Only "hard" materialistic atheists would answer "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force"
But both answers, 76% precludes practically all major religions. Aren't you regarded as atheist if you believe there is no God?
You can't honestly say that someone answering "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" could be Christian, can you? Or Muslim? Or Hindu? And right there, you've covered more than 90% of all religious sects in Sweden.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:51:44 [Permalink]
|
There is no country in the entire, freakin' world with an atheistic majority, there never has been and there will not be until after the dread H. Sapiens Extinction has come to pass!!
There. I don't think that it can be said much plainer than that, and Bill, you're tossing around red-herrings again. *tsk*
Philippino religious nut-job gettin' nailed for Jesus.
Logic & reason be damned, eh?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:01:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by leoofno |
Yet you hold to your notion that non-religious countries are "better places" then religious countries without any evidence. |
You wanted examples of non-religious nations that were better off than the US, and I provided it. Many of the European countries are considered to be "highly secular" by Christian conservatives who bemoan the fact that religion does not often play a role in their political processes. Do you really need refrences? I can look some up if so. I find it really funny that you counter these examples by claiming that the countries are actually religious. |
The numbers don't lie. In the first seven examples you gave me the people who believe in God out weigh those who do not. Hardly an atheistic majority. We were looking for a country who's majority did not believe in God and they were a "better place" then the USA. Remember?
|
You have already been told there is no country with a majority of atheists. However, there does seem to be a general trend. The general trend is that increased numbers of athiests correlates with a higher standard of living. That supports my hypothesis. I could be wrong, but that has yet to be demonstrated.
You have been told, but ignore, that your statistics are flawed (ie, citizens being enrolled at birth in the state religion) and your use of them is flawed ( inflating the numbers or those who believe in god (which is what we're talking about) with those who have a vague spiritual belief.) It all makes me think you're not being entirely honest.
|
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
|
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:20:18 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
And you have completely misunderstood my point!! I'm not suggesting-- nor have I ever suggested-- that an atheistic society would have less murder!! I brought up the point about murder to demonstrate that we don't necessarily need real-world examples to know whether something is true.
We can't offer examples of actual atheistic nations. Thus, a person might say that since we can't offer and such examples, then to suggest that an atheistic nation would be "better" (by whatever metric) than the US is sheer fantasy.
I would counter that by saying that just as we can't offer examples of actual atheistic nations, we also can't offer examples of nations that are completely free of murders. However, despite the fact that we can show no examples of a murder-free society, we can nevertheless speculate that were such a nation to exist, it would be "better" (by probably a number of metrics) than one where there is murder. |
But that has been my point from the beginning. If Leo doesn't have any examples or evidence to point to then his notion is just pure speculation on on a skeptics website. That was/is/remains my point. I am sure the next phase will be where we disagreeing on the speculation involved. Etc... etc.... etc.... |
But it's not necessarily "pure speculation" as I note with the murder example.
| And your mudding the water. Of course the vast majority would speculate that a murder free society would be a "better place" then a murderous society, so what? |
My point was that sometimes, even if we don't have a REAL example of something (e.g. a society that doesn't believe in a god, or a society where people don't murder), we can still say with reasonable certainty that it would be better or worse. You seem to think that just because it is "speculation" that it is completely without merit.| Unless your implying that you think the atheistic society would have less murders then a religious one you have an apples to oranges comparison. |
But I'm not doing that. | I would speculate that most in the US would speculate that a God fearing society would be a "better place" then an atheistic one. Does that mean you will now accept the notion? I doubt it. |
No, of course not. But what I wouldn't do is ask you to "prove" it by listing examples of atheistic countries since I'm smart enough to know that there aren't any. Instead, I'd ask what evidence would lead you to think that.| Yes, but this a skeptic website so naturally I am going to ask whether he has any evidence or examples for his notion before I ask for his anecdotal thoughts. I am pretty sure I already know his anecdotal thoughts but I had no idea if or what evidence or examples he would parade out, so I asked. |
But anyone with half a brain knows that there are no examples. You should have gone with your gut on this one. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
God is Great?
