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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:22:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
Second, I pointed out that you are both speculating that you can tie an atheistic society into a society with less murder. If your not speculating then can you give me an example or evidence for this conclusion?
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Murder Statistics (murders per million):USA:..... 59
Sweden:.. 23,9
Norway:... 7,8
Denmark:.. 7,9
Finland:. 27,5
Iceland:. 10,3 |
Mab, I know you love to bash the US, but obviously this has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the US (or, for that matter, Scandinavia) and much more to do with long AND VERY complex social, cultural, and historical matters reaching back hundreds of years. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:23:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Speculate? I can speculate that our planet is much better off with the sun then without. Big deal. |
You bet your bippy we're going to have to talk about what "speculation" is if you think that positing that a sunless Earth is worse than what we've got is speculative. The science behind that idea is pretty rock solid.| I would speculate that most in the US would speculate that a God fearing society would be a "better place" then an atheistic one. |
The question is: WHY? Upon what do you base that speculation?
If we can agree that good people will do good things with or without being religious, then I submit that a religion-free world will be a better place than what we've got now because the vast majority of people will stop wasting their time and money on religion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:48:36 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by leoofno |
| You have been told, but ignore, that your statistics are flawed (ie, citizens being enrolled at birth in the state religion) and your use of them is flawed ( inflating the numbers or those who believe in god (which is what we're talking about) with those who have a vague spiritual belief.) It all makes me think you're not being entirely honest. |
Oh good grief I cited my numbers for those who believe in God and those who do not believe in God from the same poll that the doctor quoted from.
According to a 2005 Eurobarometer Poll </wiki/Eurobarometer>,[37] 41 percent of Finnish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 41 percent answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 16 percent that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".
16% hardly makes an atheistic majority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland#Religion |
So when the doctor quoted the Eurobarometer and stated that only 41% of Finn citizens responded that they believe there is a God (This has nothing to do with state religon) I simply pointed out that in the same poll only 16% responded they do not believe in God. Thus not giving us the majority we were looking for. I don't know how to explain this any simpler for you. Again, demonstrating that even in what many Christians regard to as the godless nations they still have more that believe in God then don't. Whether they are a "better place" then the USA is debatable but an irrelevant debate to this discussion as we were looking for a nation that was a "better place" and the majority did not believe in God or the afterlife. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:51:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You can't honestly say that someone answering "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" could be Christian, can you? Or Muslim? Or Hindu? And right there, you've covered more than 90% of all religious sects in Sweden.
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No. I wouldn't. But I wasn't trying too. I was simply pointing out that because some countries only have 41-23% who claim to believe in God does not mean that atheists are in the majority. That is what we have been looking for from the beginning of this thread. A country with an majority who reject a belief in God and/or the after life and is a "better place" then the USA. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 13:45:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You can't honestly say that someone answering "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" could be Christian, can you? Or Muslim? Or Hindu? And right there, you've covered more than 90% of all religious sects in Sweden.
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No. I wouldn't. But I wasn't trying too. I was simply pointing out that because some countries only have 41-23% who claim to believe in God does not mean that atheists are in the majority. That is what we have been looking for from the beginning of this thread. A country with an majority who reject a belief in God and/or the after life and is a "better place" then the USA.
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And again, be still my rolling eyes, you ain't gonna find it because it doesn't exist! Somebody's God, how many times must this be repeated before it sinks in?
But if you do happen to find one, I'm ready to emmigrate.
Wanna come along? You can try being the in tiny minority for a while. Really, it's fun and you will quickly aquire a curmudgeon's disposition and the reputation to match it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 13:51:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by leoofno |
| You have been told, but ignore, that your statistics are flawed (ie, citizens being enrolled at birth in the state religion) and your use of them is flawed ( inflating the numbers or those who believe in god (which is what we're talking about) with those who have a vague spiritual belief.) It all makes me think you're not being entirely honest. |
Oh good grief I cited my numbers for those who believe in God and those who do not believe in God from the same poll that the doctor quoted from.
According to a 2005 Eurobarometer Poll </wiki/Eurobarometer>,[37] 41 percent of Finnish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 41 percent answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 16 percent that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".
16% hardly makes an atheistic majority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland#Religion |
So when the doctor quoted the Eurobarometer and stated that only 41% of Finn citizens responded that they believe there is a God (This has nothing to do with state religon) I simply pointed out that in the same poll only 16% responded they do not believe in God. Thus not giving us the majority we were looking for. I don't know how to explain this any simpler for you. Again, demonstrating that even in what many Christians regard to as the godless nations they still have more that believe in God then don't. Whether they are a "better place" then the USA is debatable but an irrelevant debate to this discussion as we were looking for a nation that was a "better place" and the majority did not believe in God or the afterlife.
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I told you there was no country like that. You keep asking for something that everyone admits does not exist. The European countries were given as examples that "came close". And they do appear to be in some measureable ways "better" than the US. Thats the best I can do, but its enough to show that my original statements are not "pure speculation".
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 14:07:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
Second, I pointed out that you are both speculating that you can tie an atheistic society into a society with less murder. If your not speculating then can you give me an example or evidence for this conclusion?
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Murder Statistics (murders per million):USA:..... 59
Sweden:.. 23,9
Norway:... 7,8
Denmark:.. 7,9
Finland:. 27,5
Iceland:. 10,3 |
Mab, I know you love to bash the US, |
Don't over-react. It's not my intention.
I just wanted to provide Bill scott with some statistics. Even if Bill refuse to accept it, Scandinavian countries have a secular majority.
but obviously this has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the US (or, for that matter, Scandinavia) and much more to do with long AND VERY complex social, cultural, and historical matters reaching back hundreds of years.
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There certainly is a correlation. To say "obviously this has nothing to do with" (emphasis mine) is to draw an unsupported conclusion regarding the relationship. USA have always had a much higher murder rate than, say, Sweden, and most of that depends upon culture and history, just like you said. But religion is a huge part of the aforementioned US culture.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 14:35:53 [Permalink]
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Murder rates are prob not a good stat for this conversation.... the countries with the lowest rates are the theocratic dictatorships like Saudi Arabia. Of course, they probably don't count things like "honor killing" as murder.... but hey.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 15:04:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Murder rates are prob not a good stat for this conversation.... the countries with the lowest rates are the theocratic dictatorships like Saudi Arabia. Of course, they probably don't count things like "honor killing" as murder.... but hey.
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Good point. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 15:46:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So when the doctor quoted the Eurobarometer and stated that only 41% of Finn citizens responded that they believe there is a God (This has nothing to do with state religon) I simply pointed out that in the same poll only 16% responded they do not believe in God. |
Read the goddamn paper! There was no "not believe in God" or "I'm Atheist" answer to check. Only two answers that did not explicitly say "God". If 84% of the Finns believed in God, they would have voted "Believe in God", not the fuzzy "believe there is some sort of spirit or life force"!
If they believed in God, they would have voted "Believe in God". Some sort of spirit or life force does not qualify as "Believe in God". Therefore all but 41% disbelieve in God.
Some of the 43% that choose the middle answer would be agnostics, and atheists that believe there something else (paranormal) out there. An atheist does not have to be strictly materialist.
I can only speculate that your faith prohobits you to entertain such ideas. Perhaps that's why you refuse to accept that you're wrong.
| I don't know how to explain this any simpler for you. |
When logic is beyond your grasp, I don't think you'll be able reach me. Nonsense only goes that far.
| Again, demonstrating that even in what many Christians regard to as the godless nations they still have more that believe in God then don't. |
Only in your delusion and inability to comprehend what you read. Or simple denial, take your pick.
Whether they are a "better place" then the USA is debatable but an irrelevant debate to this discussion as we were looking for a nation that was a "better place" and the majority did not believe in God or the afterlife.
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Zzzzzzz...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 16:59:28 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dr. MabuseThere certainly is a correlation. To say "obviously this has nothing to do with" (emphasis mine) is to draw an unsupported conclusion regarding the relationship. USA have always had a much higher murder rate than, say, Sweden, and most of that depends upon culture and history, just like you said. But religion is a huge part of the aforementioned US culture. |
I don't deny that religion is a large part of US culture. But it has little to do with things like the 2nd Amendment to the Us Constitution. Gang violence and drug wars in poverty-stricken US cities (where the highest concentrations of murder stem from) are not done in the name of Yahweh. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 17:44:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
| Originally posted by Dr. MabuseThere certainly is a correlation. To say "obviously this has nothing to do with" (emphasis mine) is to draw an unsupported conclusion regarding the relationship. USA have always had a much higher murder rate than, say, Sweden, and most of that depends upon culture and history, just like you said. But religion is a huge part of the aforementioned US culture. |
I don't deny that religion is a large part of US culture. But it has little to do with things like the 2nd Amendment to the Us Constitution. Gang violence and drug wars in poverty-stricken US cities (where the highest concentrations of murder stem from) are not done in the name of Yahweh.
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Such problems are minor in Sweden thanks to adequately funded social security. I don't deny that it does exist, but not to the extent in the US. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 17:59:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It is irrelevant which city I live in. These people can be found in any major US metropolitan area. |
I've never seen any in D.C., so which city you live in is highly relevant to my quest for the easy life.| Your putting words in my mouth. Leo thought some in Europe came closest to a godless society and he speculated that their poor were better off then our poor. I merely pointed out that here in the US the vast majority of rescue missions and soup kitchens (which cater to the poor) are ran by religious organizations. That was all I said. |
How quickly you forget your own words. You also said that if religion were to vanish, the homeless shelters would experience "a major dwindle."| You can come to your own conclusion on that but don't put words in my mouth that I never uttered. |
I didn't. I followed what appeared to be your logic to its conclusion.| Again, come to your own conclusions. I merely was reminding Leo of the fact that the vast amount of soup kitchens and shelters in this country are ran by religious organizations. |
So you're seriously trying to claim that in this post you weren't answering my question, you were instead "merely" reminding Leo of something that you first said to me. It's getting quite deep in here, Bill.| I have never once stated that evil deeds were never done in the name of "religon." |
I never said that you stated that. I was explaining why I think we'd all be better off without religion.| History is littered with such examples. |
I know, and it's quite sad that any religious person has murdered any other religious person in the name of their God, but I suppose that you're commanded to, so it's not really your fault, it's God's fault. Everything is God's fault, after all.| I was wanting to know if Leo had any examples in the real world in which he could point to where the majority of the population of a country had no faith in God and was a "better place" then the USA. |
I know and I think it's odd that you're so easily confused.Absolutely. If God's power to sustain and recall life is absolute, then nobody should be able to murder anyone else. Abortion couldn't be an option, and neither could life-saving medicine. Unless, of course, those are two of God's methods of recalling and sustaining lives (respectively), in which case God is responsible for every death as well as every life, and "Thou shalt not murder" is meaningless.| That right, it's God's call on how long anyone gets and not man's. And anytime he makes that call (ie. murder) he has placed himself over God and his authority as the creator and sustainer of all life. |
Then why did you ask me if I was serious when I said just that?| But that command was given to ancient Israel and not to me. |
Sorry, but Jesus said that all of the law was in effect until all is fulfilled - and that will only occur after the second coming of Christ. The six hundred plus commandments apply to you, Bill, unless you wish to cherry-pick the Bible.| And as I said God has the authority to call back any life he sees fit at any time he sees fit and however he sees fit. |
So how do you tell the difference between a human-caused murder and a God-caused death?| You seem to be missing the main point which is that we all get called back and the life that was given to us will be accounted for. For some this life will be longer then it is for others, but the final outcome for us all remains the same. This life will be called back by God... |
How is that the "main point?" Atheists all believe that the risk of death is 100%, also.| As a Christian I would remorse over all lose of human life. I would remorse for the non-regenerate man who perished as he must now face his creator and give account for his life based on his own merits as well as for the family he left behind. I would remorse for the Christian who perished for the family and friends he may have left behind, but I would rejoice that he has went home at the same time. |
How do you tell the difference? How do you know when to mourn the seemingly unrepentant and rejoice the seemingly Christian?| Now you seem to be hung up on how people die, 9/11 etc... It's not how people die that needs to be the main focus but rather we need to focus on the fact that we all do die. Not one of us is going to escape our time, whether that be today or 50 years from now, it will come. |
No, the question is still why does any Christian mourn any death, since life is short and all will get whatever they deserve?
If God is perfect and everything He does is perfectly good and perfectly just, then family and friends of deceased people should be happy that they're dead, no matter the reason, and no matter the dead person's destination. After all, if a person goes to Hell, it must be for perfectly good and just reasons. What's to be sad about? And it must be perfectly good and just for a person to go to Heaven, so any hardship faced by those "left behind" must be perfectly good and just as well. What's to mourn? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 18:29:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
| Originally posted by Dr. MabuseThere certainly is a correlation. To say "obviously this has nothing to do with" (emphasis mine) is to draw an unsupported conclusion regarding the relationship. USA have always had a much higher murder rate than, say, Sweden, and most of that depends upon culture and history, just like you said. But religion is a huge part of the aforementioned US culture. |
I don't deny that religion is a large part of US culture. But it has little to do with things like the 2nd Amendment to the Us Constitution. Gang violence and drug wars in poverty-stricken US cities (where the highest concentrations of murder stem from) are not done in the name of Yahweh. |
Such problems are minor in Sweden thanks to adequately funded social security. I don't deny that it does exist, but not to the extent in the US. |
Huh? I'm confused. High murder rates in the US are obviously closely linked to guns, which do a far better job of killing people than, say, pocket knives or harsh language. And our gun laws don't really have roots in things like religion.
Similarly, crime and poverty in this country have their roots in a rather complex history involving things like race and racism, as well as mis-guided government policies towards things like drugs.
I don't doubt the facts of Europe's superior social safety net, and I certainly admire much about its more forward-thinking policies in the environment and economy. And I am certain that the limited role of religion in Europe is responsible for some of this.
That said, murder rates in the US, I think, don't really have much link to religion. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 21:07:06 [Permalink]
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Cune said:
| High murder rates in the US are obviously closely linked to guns |
Evidence for that?
I was under the impression that our high crime rates have more to do with poverty (and geography*) than anything else. Do guns make it easy to kill people? Sure. But the impetus to kill a person has nothing to do with the availability of guns.
*our convenient location and relative prosperity has brought gangs from other places, Central/South America, Mexico, Hati, etc... and is responsible for a good bit of inner city violence.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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God is Great?
