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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2008 : 21:25:55 [Permalink]
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Dude, an argument can be made that by making killing easier, guns produce more murders that occur in the "heat of the moment", which wouldn't occur otherwise. However, I agree with you in that I think poverty is an underlying cause of most violence, murder or not.
Cune, if someone wants someone else dead, will the fact that the task is not easy really stop them? However, you bring up an interesting point that at least a significant portion of our crime can be linked to the illegality of drugs. Can this in turn be connected to Christians in power? In other words, was it Christian based moral values which were so deeply entrenched with our nation in the 50's and early 60's which lead to making drugs illegal, thus leading to more crime? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 21:28:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Cune said:
| High murder rates in the US are obviously closely linked to guns |
Evidence for that?
I was under the impression that our high crime rates have more to do with poverty (and geography*) than anything else. Do guns make it easy to kill people? Sure. But the impetus to kill a person has nothing to do with the availability of guns. |
No, the impetus to kill has nothing to do with that. But the ability to carry out that desire certainly does. Unfortunately, the various pro- and anti- gun lobbies in the US have thrown out so much information that it all becomes disinformation as data refute data. I could be totally wrong, but after spending some time surfing the web and on-line library journals, it seems cleat that anyone can back up any position they like.
I'm not some anti-gun nut, BTW. I own a Ruger 9mm and am going to go to a range this weekend, actually. (My irrational Red Dawn fear means that my spare 2,000 rounds of hollow-tip ammo is sort of over the top, but whatever...) That said, my sense is that easy access to weapons that do a good job of killing people is a significant problem. Poverty is a problem, too, of course. But is the religious nature of America significantly related to any of this, as Mab seems to think? I am decidedly skeptical. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/12/2008 21:39:07 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 21:37:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Cune, if someone wants someone else dead, will the fact that the task is not easy really stop them? |
Sure. I can try to kill you with my bare hands. And the fact that my bare hands are my only choice isn't going to stop me. It's just a question of how much success I'll have. And having a gun will make it easier. Read the blotter from a major city. It's guns. Perhaps Joe Smith could have walked out and attacked John Doe in his SUV while he waited for the green light with a baseball bat instead of a gun. But I'm guessing that armed with the bat, he doesn't quite make the kill.
| However, you bring up an interesting point that at least a significant portion of our crime can be linked to the illegality of drugs. Can this in turn be connected to Christians in power? In other words, was it Christian based moral values which were so deeply entrenched with our nation in the 50's and early 60's which lead to making drugs illegal, thus leading to more crime? |
Yeah. I've been thinking about this since Mab brought up his now-common the-US-sucks bit in trying to show how murder is a result of religion in the US. And yes, our draconian drug-laws do seem to have some basis in religious zeal. But I also wonder about how often religion gets co-opted in this country by economic elites who couldn't give a fuck about Jesus, but who know that the only way they'll get votes is via massive Jesus posturing. And obviously the prison industry and its associates stand a lot to gain from keeping as many people in jail as possible.
I'm too young to really know the history of our drug laws. I'll have to look into it. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2008 : 23:18:47 [Permalink]
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Most murders are heat of the moment things. Whatever weapon is at hand, including your hands, will do just fine. 75lb of force (a 6y/o can easily generate this much power with a punch, to set it in perspective) to the trachea can kill you. A light push to the back of the knee can make most people fall. An average human can generate enough force with a stick to easily kill another human (with a blow to the head).
You might be able to make an argument that a gun depersonalizes the act and makes it easier for people to do it.... but I'm not convinced the existence and availability of guns has anything to do with murder rates.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 05:23:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Most murders are heat of the moment things. Whatever weapon is at hand, including your hands, will do just fine. 75lb of force (a 6y/o can easily generate this much power with a punch, to set it in perspective) to the trachea can kill you. A light push to the back of the knee can make most people fall. An average human can generate enough force with a stick to easily kill another human (with a blow to the head).
You might be able to make an argument that a gun depersonalizes the act and makes it easier for people to do it.... but I'm not convinced the existence and availability of guns has anything to do with murder rates.
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Just imagine these headlines:
"Five Killed, Two Wounded in Drive-by Trachea Punching"
"Three Killed in Workplace Stick-Wacking"
Come on, Dude, do you really think people would be as successful at killing others if they had no guns? I agree that the desire would still be as prevelent, but the success ratio would be way less. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 05:28:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Zzzzzzz...
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| Some of the 43% that choose the middle answer would be agnostics, and atheists that believe there something else (paranormal) out there. An atheist does not have to be strictly materialist. |
Ok. How many agnostics, atheists, free thinkers, skeptics etc... etc... etc.... out there "believe there is some sort of spirit or life force"?
Dave, start a poll. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 05:40:07 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| It is irrelevant which city I live in. These people can be found in any major US metropolitan area. |
I've never seen any in D.C., so which city you live in is highly relevant to my quest for the easy life. |
You consider DC part of the US? And based on the amount of time you spend on this website I would say that you already have the easy life.
| Your putting words in my mouth. Leo thought some in Europe came closest to a godless society and he speculated that their poor were better off then our poor. I merely pointed out that here in the US the vast majority of rescue missions and soup kitchens (which cater to the poor) are ran by religious organizations. That was all I said. |
How quickly you forget your own words. You also said that if religion were to vanish, the homeless shelters would experience "a major dwindle." |
You would experience a dwindle because the vast amount of soup kitchens and missions are ran by religious organizations. Now you can speculate and say that non-religious people would fill in the gaps when the religious people disappear and no one is giving the homeless care, but that is just speculation. And if they would step in then how come we don't see any atheist/agnostic soup kitchens today? Where is the Free Thought/Skeptics Homeless Shelter now? Right now the majority of homeless shelters and soup kitchens are ran by religious organizations. That is just a fact. It's then only logical that if all the religious people were to disappear this would no doubt cause a dwindle. Now you and I can speculate on what the non-religious would do in the absence of the religious in regards to the homeless, but it is just speculation
| You can come to your own conclusion on that but don't put words in my mouth that I never uttered. |
I didn't. I followed what appeared to be your logic to its conclusion. |
See above
| I have never once stated that evil deeds were never done in the name of "religon." |
I never said that you stated that. I was explaining why I think we'd all be better off without religion. |
That is fine. I will just remind you as I did Leo that it is all your speculation with no working model to point as an example. That was/is/remains all that I am saying.
| History is littered with such examples. |
| I know, and it's quite sad that any religious person has murdered any other religious person in the name of their God, but I suppose that you're commanded to, so it's not really your fault, it's God's fault. Everything is God's fault, after all. |
I have never murdered anyone of a different religion or of no religion. Nor have I ever interpreted anything in the Word that told me to do so nor I have ever felt God was wanting me too. I would agree that there was a time when God instructed ancient Israel to kill many of her enemies, but as the creator and sustainer of all life who can challenge his authority to do so?
Absolutely. If God's power to sustain and recall life is absolute, then nobody should be able to murder anyone else. Abortion couldn't be an option, and neither could life-saving medicine. Unless, of course, those are two of God's methods of recalling and sustaining lives (respectively), in which case God is responsible for every death as well as every life, and "Thou shalt not murder" is meaningless. |
If we had no freewill then God would never have to give the commandment to not murder. God wants us to choose to accept and love Christ based on what he has done for us. Without choice you can't have love and are nothing but a preprogrammed human robot. The flip side of this is we can also choose to reject Christ as well. But we must have that option if we are to have freewill.
| Sorry, but Jesus said that all of the law was in effect until all is fulfilled - and that will only occur after the second coming of Christ. The six hundred plus commandments apply to you, Bill, unless you wish to cherry-pick the Bible. |
Then why did Peter have a dream in Acts where he was told he could eat what was considered defiled and unclean food under the law?
| And as I said God has the authority to call back any life he sees fit at any time he sees fit and however he sees fit. |
So how do you tell the difference between a human-caused murder and a God-caused death? |
Only the creator himself would know this on a case by case basis.
| You seem to be missing the main point which is that we all get called back and the life that was given to us will be accounted for. For some this life will be longer then it is for others, but the final outcome for us all remains the same. This life will be called back by God... |
How is that the "main point?" Atheists all believe that the risk of death is 100%, also. |
Because we were talking about how come some people were seemingly saved in disasters while others were not. I simply commented that they were not really saved but were just given more time as we all die in the end. The one who escaped the disaster was just given a little more time and was not really saved. Their fate remains the same. So whether it is 10 years we are given or 50 years, the bottom line is we are all going to meet that same fate. And then...
| As a Christian I would remorse over all lose of human life. I would remorse for the non-regenerate man who perished as he must now face his creator and give account for his life based on his own merits as well as for the family he left behind. I would remorse for the Christian who perished for the family and friends he may have left behind, but I would rejoice that he has went home at the same time. |
How do you tell the difference? How do you know when to mourn the seemingly unrepentant and rejoice the seemingly Christian? |
I wouldn't know the difference on a case by case basis. When 3000 people die undoubtedly some will be believers and some will not.
| No, the question is still why does any Christian mourn any death, since life is short and all will get whatever they deserve? |
Well first the Bible says that blessed are those who mourn and second, because of Christ on the cross, we all don't get what we deserve.
| If God is perfect and everything He does is perfectly good and perfectly just, then family and friends of deceased people should be happy that they're dead, no matter the reason, and no matter the dead person's destination. After all, if a person goes to Hell, it must be for perfectly good and just reasons. What's to be sad about? |
They will now reap what they have sowed. But you are correct about God being good and just. The hell bound sinner choose his destination by his own freewill
| And it must be perfectly good and just for a person to go to Heaven, so any hardship faced by those "left behind" must be perfectly good and just as well. What's to mourn? |
In the grand scheme of things, nothing. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/13/2008 05:44:17 |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 05:54:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Zzzzzzz...
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| Some of the 43% that choose the middle answer would be agnostics, and atheists that believe there something else (paranormal) out there. An atheist does not have to be strictly materialist. |
Ok. How many agnostics, atheists, free thinkers, skeptics etc... etc... etc.... out there "believe there is some sort of spirit or life force"?
Dave, start a poll.
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Pagans would fit the description, and (WARNING: SPECULATION ALERT) I bet the US would be a better place if we were all Pagans instead of Christians. Pagans don't condemn anyone for their differing religious beliefs. The polytheistic universe is an inclusive one, always room for a few more. And hey, just because they're your gods doesn't mean they have to be mine, and thats OK. We can all get along religiously. Thats the problem with Chriatianity's God, He's very exclusive. Its either Me (good) or its the Devil (evil). You're either with Me or you're against Me, and if you're against me you're evil and need to be delt with. Its for your own good, the good of your soul. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2008 : 06:28:08 [Permalink]
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| You would experience a dwindle because the vast amount of soup kitchens and missions are ran by religious organizations. Now you can speculate and say that non-religious people would fill in the gaps when the religious people disappear and no one is giving the homeless care, but that is just speculation. And if they would step in then how come we don't see any atheist/agnostic soup kitchens today? Where is the Free Thought/Skeptics Homeless Shelter now? Right now the majority of homeless shelters and soup kitchens are ran by religious organizations. That is just a fact. It's then only logical that if all the religious people were to disappear this would no doubt cause a dwindle. Now you and I can speculate on what the non-religious would do in the absence of the religious in regards to the homeless, but it is just speculation |
Bill, me old churchy, you really need to rethink that statement. Philanthropy is as philanthropy does and we atheists dig as deep as any.
It is entirely true that most (but not all) facilities such as soup kitchens & shelters are run by local churchs, but much (but not all) of their funding ultimatly comes from various foundations that are secular.
I assure you that if the churchs dropped the ball on this, the slack would be quickly taken up by secular organzations, which include atheists & agnostics, small in number though we are.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/13/2008 06:30:16 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 06:47:04 [Permalink]
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Bill, the majority of atheists, should be properly called agnostics. Most of us are all willing to eat at God's table, should It choose to invite us, but alas, we have no invitations except those printed by men.
That said, I am in the no spirtuality side of the poll. I believe their is no evidence of God, not that it's existance is impossible. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 05/13/2008 06:53:42 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 06:50:51 [Permalink]
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| Also many places have similar gun ownership rates, with greatly inferior gun murder rates. In Bowling For Columbine, I felt MM showed very well how our(US) culture of fearmongering press, violent media and distrust of strangers was the root cause. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 05/13/2008 06:51:25 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 06:54:28 [Permalink]
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That is our cultural definition, not my own. Bill seems to lump them all together.
Edit: It seems to me when atheist's are described by anti-atheists they are described as if they ALL 'believe God cannot exist' |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 05/13/2008 06:59:52 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 07:11:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
*our convenient location and relative prosperity has brought gangs from other places, Central/South America, Mexico, Hati, etc... and is responsible for a good bit of inner city violence.
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Well, if you look at the Murder Rate link I provided, you'll see that Central and South America have much higher murder rate than even USA. Canada on the other hand have a very low murder rate. I guess it's reasonable to ascribe at least some of the statistics to the demographic proximity to Central America.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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God is Great?
