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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
 Posted - 05/10/2008 : 10:37:36
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(I will not comment on how a Catholic's spiritual path will turn out, but I believe if a Catholic truly turns to protestanism, the trajectory will be the same as the one described here.)
(Please ask me areas in which I can clarify)
Like most Christians starting off, I was at first an Arminian(the default position). Then, as one gets serious about the Christian religion, most people will transform into Calvinists. For me, it took dozens of fire-and-brimstone sermons, an epiphany that finally lifted me out of severe depression (caused by listening to the sermons) that convinced me to switch.
Calvinists are determined folk, and also extremely organized, note the extensive network they have, and the dogged determination to pound any opposition to the ground -
EXHIBIT ONE: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-13,RNWE:en&q=%22reformed+blogs
Very few Calvinists revert back to Arminianism - Calvinism's Biblical basis is simply too strong. Moreover, Arminianism is stretched thin by fighting two fronts - trying to "outbible" the Calvinists and trying to convince skeptics that their faith is reasonable. Calvinists are rarely concerned what skeptics think - or anybody for that matter.
So shouldn't eventually all Arminians become Calvinists who then live happily ever after? The dirty little secret is, if Calvinism can't keep a person inside Christianity, it's usually sayonara for them:
EXHIBIT TWO: http://www.google.com/search?hl=zh-TW&rls=RNWE%2CRNWE%3A2005-13%2CRNWE%3Aen&q=%22debunking+christianity%22+calvinist&lr=
...which is where I am right now. Arminianism->Calvinism->??? Actually, I don't know of many Calvinists who quit faith as a result of a debate. They (me included) are usually pretty sure of themselves, so they have to be blindsided, separated from their herd somehow so that they can face the evidence to the contrary. This could be caused by little things, ie minor theological differences with other Calvinists, inner lingering doubts their supposed comrades refuse to answer, or in my case, disagreement over whether I should work a job out of state.
Once I was ostracised I was free to talk to those who have "fallen away", the "back stabbers" - I began to understand the quiet desperation of those who have "seeked Christ" for decades, sometimes half-centuries, convinced of their certain destruction - whose only "sin" was not to have an angel appear in their bedroom one night, telling them they are finally authorized to "believe in Jesus the REAL way" - which is what Calvinists would like you to believe is the only way to get saved. The floodgates opened.
So this is how it plays out for 80% of the born-agains like me. So what becomes of me now? Right now, I think I'm going to find myself another church. WHAT!!!??? you may be thinking.
I must say that, hidden beneath the numerous abusive pastors, sadistic theologies, etc. I found beauty that rational skeptism cannot offer me. I am convinced my grandma's belief in a deity (baseless as it is) allowed her to survive multiple bouts of cancer.
Then there is... Rosa. I met the woman of my life when I joined the abusive cult. We joined at the same time: we prayed for each other, encouraged each other to persevere to "receive Christ" even though the abusive preaching (designed to make us "aware of sin and unworthy") sometimes drove us to the brink of suicide.
Then the happy week came. God "saved" her earlier in the week, then me also later that week. WE WERE ON FIRE FOR JESUS! We wanted to convert everyone down the street, and tell them the church they went to was not proclaiming the truth - SO COME TO OURS. People started flooding in to our auditorium. I was also so in love with Rosa. We were going to get married, become missionaries, save the heathens. We invited strangers to our homes to show how "glorifying God" our lifestyles were. We were going to start a holy revolution in Sun Valley - then the WHOLE F**KING UNIVERSE! RAH RAH RAH!
The Iraq war came. We looked solemn - but in our hearts we were excited because this meant JESUS was coming back! But then the real estate market soured, and Rosa started hurting when she wen driving one day. She found out she had cancer (this was withheld from me), and I couldn't find work fitting my education in California. The pastor argued I couldn't work out of state and serve God at the same time. I got the job anyway. When I came back to attend church, I was told I wasn't welcome anymore, and that I was as good as dead to them.
They would not allow me to be at her side when she passed away last year.
So THIS is why I will head back to church by the end of this year. Not because any of the bullshit they preach is remotely plausible, but WHAT A RIDE it was the last time around! I WANT to embrace comforting bullshit. I WANT to play the "us against the world" game. Maybe I'll find another "Rosa"??? Humanism's got nothing on this man, you guys are too rational to concoct all this drama. Those guys have you beat on this one.
I'll find a good Calvinist church, and act like a God-fearing, sin-hating fundie - only this time around I'll know it's a crock of shit (I'll keep my mouth shut about it so I'll get to stay longer, though).
Maybe this time I won't look for work out of state so this time around things will end a little bit better 
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Edited by - timothwc on 05/10/2008 10:40:57
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 12:16:19 [Permalink]
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timothwc.....
tim, I find your story quite interesting and touching, in a way. If you don't mind, may I ask your age and educational background?
You write well, with confidence and obvious experience. You are well-versed in expressing yourself, unlike many fundamentalists who grace or disgrace these pages with their frequently irrational, misspelled, and ungrammatical pronouncements!
Are you today a pronounced atheist, as you suggest; or do you see the whole religion thing as a sort of intellectual game to be played?| So THIS is why I will head back to church by the end of this year. Not because any of the bullshit they preach is remotely plausible, but WHAT A RIDE it was the last time around! I WANT to embrace comforting bullshit. I WANT to play the "us against the world" game. |
You wouldn't be throwing down a plastic gauntlet here, would you Tim?
Write more. You sound like fun to fool with! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 05/10/2008 20:48:40 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 13:00:20 [Permalink]
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timothwc:
The pastor argued I couldn't work out of state and serve God at the same time. I got the job anyway. When I came back to attend church, I was told I wasn't welcome anymore, and that I was as good as dead to them. |
I don't understand the pastors rational here. It seems so, well, for lack of a better way of putting it, un-Christian. It's something I might expect from the scientology cult where workings of the "church" are a guarded secret and they actually have a shit-list that targets ex-members.
Could you elaborate?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 14:07:56 [Permalink]
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timothwc said:
So THIS is why I will head back to church by the end of this year. Not because any of the bullshit they preach is remotely plausible, but WHAT A RIDE it was the last time around! I WANT to embrace comforting bullshit. I WANT to play the "us against the world" game. Maybe I'll find another "Rosa"??? Humanism's got nothing on this man, you guys are too rational to concoct all this drama. Those guys have you beat on this one.
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That is possibly one of the top ten most absurd things I have ever heard.
Don't go, don't give them your money, don't pretend to agree with them. All you do is help them exist.
Can you live with helping the same assholes who refused to let you see the woman you loved in her final days? Sure, it may not be the same specific ones, but the mindset is not likely to be different.
Worse yet, can you knowingly tolerate the lies and bullshit? What does this say about your character tim?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 14:24:13 [Permalink]
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timothwc.....
With reference toRight now, I think I'm going to find myself another church. WHAT!!!??? you may be thinking.
I must say that, hidden beneath the numerous abusive pastors, sadistic theologies, etc. I found beauty that rational skeptism cannot offer me. I am convinced my grandma's belief in a deity (baseless as it is) allowed her to survive multiple bouts of cancer. |
Describe this "beauty", tim. Is it a illusion of self-deception? and where is the beauty in that? You know, by your own admission, that it is bullshit, and yet you crave more of it. What is wrong with your self-image; your self-respect, if you will, tim?| Humanism's got nothing on this man, you guys are too rational to concoct all this drama. Those guys have you beat on this one. |
Yeah, I guess, if fantasy is what you need to survive. No doubt that the theonuts have us beat in the con game of concocting fable to mislead and control people for the joy of wielding power and because of greed for the enormous profit available to fundamentalist charismatics who manipulate the stupid and deluded into providing fortunes for their expansive lifestyles.| I'll find a good Calvinist church, and act like a God-fearing, sin-hating fundie - only this time around I'll know it's a crock of shit (I'll keep my mouth shut about it so I'll get to stay longer, though). |
You know, with a case of masochism that severe, why don't you just get a short cat'o nine tails and flagellate yourself into a bloody mess every so often? It ought to make you feel a little better about yourself!
I realize that you are very probably pulling our collective leg so hard it's about to become detached from our collective body, but I tend to holler "troll" way too early sometimes, so if you're serious, tell us more about your mental disorder. |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 05/10/2008 20:49:21 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 15:57:17 [Permalink]
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| I was told last year that I'd make a good Calvanist, by a guy who meant it as an insult after failing to understand my simple criticisms of his apologetics. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 20:43:47 [Permalink]
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The few times I've entered church buildings, the organ spontaneously begins issuing low sinister tones, the floor starts to rumble and the foundations begin to shake.
Things return to normal after I hurriedly leave.  |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2008 : 11:44:51 [Permalink]
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timothwc.....
tim, tim, tim, where are you, tim? Your comments on Calvinism left some of us with curiosity and questions, now you appear to be burrowing somewhere in the Hall of the Mountain King. This had the faint scent of a potentially good thread, and now it's becoming unraveled!
Lover, come back to us. Shane, come back, Shane! Don't do the hit and run thing, and validate my mole hole, loam gnome suspicions!
Don't be timid, Tim! Tell your tale of theistic thickheaded toxicity and explain how in the name of psychiatric entropy you could consider going back to fucking Calvinism, for kryssake! |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2008 : 13:47:43 [Permalink]
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Ricky.....
At my age, patience can be lethal. And virtue, although it is it's own reward, is inimical to my nature. |
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Trajectory of the protestant life (long story)
