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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2008 : 03:35:07 [Permalink]
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Here's a queer twist; the Vatican says that aliens are cool. Vatican: It's OK to believe in aliens
VATICAN CITY - The Vatican's chief astronomer says that believing in aliens does not contradict faith in God.
The Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said that the vastness of the universe means it is possible there could be other forms of life outside Earth, even intelligent ones.
In an interview published Tuesday by Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Funes said that such a notion "doesn't contradict our faith" because aliens would still be God's creatures.
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And he's not claiming any flying chalices zooming around the town square. Considering the Church's history, we should feel relief.
Now, if we can just get the Protestant YECs, some of whom seem to believe that Harry Potter is a docu-drama, to wake up to that distinct possibility. But I doubt if it's gonna happen, especially if it's at all based on science and been accepted by "The Great Whore."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2008 : 06:40:18 [Permalink]
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Not to be outdone, AiG weighs in on it. Actually, if you ignore the Creation-flogging, it's a pretty thoughtful article, if brief, and worth a read. What Are We Looking For?
When we contemplate life on other planets, what are we really looking for? Many believe that some alien culture will tell us the secrets of our purpose in this universe; others believe that these space beings hold the key to health and eternal life; and some even claimed to hear from our “space brothers.”
Could it be that some are searching so diligently for extraterrestrial life because they are hoping to find some form of salvation from the stars—longer life, health, peace, or even identity? Some search “out there” because they think they can't find those things here.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2008 : 11:02:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Simon
I kind of disagree with you on this one Filthy...
I know, I know, absence of evidence is never evidence of absence... But I don't consider that the absence of evidence wait the same in both case as God is; by definition not subject to natural laws while aliens would be.
Not conclusive in either case, but it is like saying that disproving the existence of unicorns is the same than disproving the existence of a yet unknown specie of insect deep in the Amazonian forest.
In both case we have the same evidences (or absence of evidences) and I guess that in both case the burden of proof is on proving the existence but... The strength of this assumption is not nearly as definitive.
At least that's how I see it...
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Ok, God is not subject to the Laws of Physics but the aliens would be. That's a given, however, there is a varible: time & distance. there is no known planet near enough to us for contact unless it was done with a huge ship capable of housing myriad generations of crew. If we postulate that the ship might have a way of exceeding light-speed, we run right smack into dem ol' debbels, de Laws o' Physics & Br'er Einstein again. Ouch!
This doesn't exactly put the aliens at the right hand of God, but for the sake of discussion, they're pretty close.
The unicorn and the insect are a different proposition. Unicorns are myths, you and I both know it (with the exception of the invisible pink one in Valient Dancer's garage). But you and I also know that the rain forests of the world contain a staggering number of undescribed species, especially arthropods. I'll bet that you and I could easily find a previously unknown insect or arachnid and even get get to name it. If it bites, my ex would be a good "in honor of."
Apples & oranges, eh?
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Yes; that's the point I was trying (awkwardly) to make.
If you accept the Godly hypothesis as a valid one; you would consider to be free of the physical laws. So that it violates these laws would be of little significance.
For the aliens, this contradiction would be much more meaningful and be a much bigger thorn in the side of the hypothesis.
Now; it could be 'solved' by suggesting that the aliens have a very high level of technology, far ahead of anything we can conceive. Virtually limitless compared to us...
But, as we know, such a level of technology would be indistinguishable from magic and you basically (re)defined the aliens as God.
I had a point somewhere, I think...
Ah yes, I wanted to say that based on an apparently similar absence of evidence, I reach a different conclusion about the two:
I strongly disbelieve that we are being visited by aliens while I am merely agnostic about the bearded sky-man... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2008 : 12:05:21 [Permalink]
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And the Laws of Physics don't allow for magic, so the prudent move would be to shoot first. 
Here's a related posting at UcD, where the Lone atheist and his faithful, Indian companion, T...... now where the hell'd the fucker go? Anyhow, the comments are something of a revelation. Take This Survey: If SETI found ET, would that destroy your faith?
O'Leary
What difference would a real live ET make to your faith (whatever it is?)
Ted Peters, a researcher in the field of science and religion and author of SCIENCE, THEOLOGY, AND ETHICS (Ashgate 2003), is conducting a survey. The central question is this: Would contact with extraterrestrial intelligent life affect religion on earth? Would you be wiling to participate? The questionnaire is very brief and would take only 5 minutes to fill out. Although we will tabulate the data anonymously and will take every step to maintain confidentiality, please note we cannot guarantee full confidentiality when receiving email responses. Thank you. Ted Peters, Principle Investigator, is professor of systematic theology at Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary, the Graduate Union, and the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences. Julie Froehlig, Research Assistant, is a student at PLTS.
I found the survey questions interesting, but I couldn't really answer most of them decisively.
For example, I have no idea what the religious opinions of an extraterrestrial would be. It would be just my luck to run into a hopelessly conflicted alien who believes that space travel is sinful … but it feels so good anyway that he just can't … and so his shrink says … (O'Leary yawns and switches off tape
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 17:29:09 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| ** I'm fairly sure you meant the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions though. |
Hell, Dude, we all can't be as omniscient as you! You're obviously gifted, and besides you can spell! Better than I, obviously!
Next time I'm gonna' write #1585;#1576;#1575;#1593;#1740;#1575;#1578; #1593;#1605;#1585; #1582;#1740;#1575;#1605;
The Moving Finger writes: and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Boo Hoo, hoo!
And it was always so. Those who ignore History are forever doomed to repeat their mistakes.
You got me hands and pants down, it's my stupidity and it's the last time I'm gonna' be in a hurry. My face is redder than rhubarb!
Be on notice, however, Dude-O, that your sometimes less than perfect syntax and spelling had better be pretty damn perfect from now on, or it ain't gonna' go publically unnoticed! Gauntlet thrown!| In addition to a small number of hours a week of television, I read at least 2 novel length books. I try to read something informative or educational. In addition to textbooks.... My TV watching is limited to having one of the news channels on in the background when I'm studying or arguing with you here. |
Keep it up for another forty years, kid, and you may end up educated! Especially keep up that arguing part!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2008 : 18:03:40 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
| a lot of folks on the other side of the argument fail to realize is that proving/disproving alien visitors falls into the same category as that of proving/disproving the existence of God. Until & unless the deity/visitor can be produced, it is not possible and all argument is rendered futile. |
Filth, you better rephrase that or it sounds like Jurassic Park would have to become reality in order to demonstrate that velociraptors really existed!
If enough evidence of alien visitation existed, it would be as substantial proof of aliens as dinosaur tracks and bones are proof of their ancient existence! Such alien evidence has never been found, or if it has, it most certainly has been so well concealed or destroyed that it might as well never have existed. I don't know, and it doesn't matter, speculation along those lines is not productive. My agnosticism is this: If such evidence does appear some day, I will not be surprised. Neither would I be surprised, if such evidence does not exist and consequently never surfaces!
I certainly agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! Several hundred tons of dinosaur remains cannot be dismissed!
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 05/15/2008 18:12:07 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 03:20:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
| a lot of folks on the other side of the argument fail to realize is that proving/disproving alien visitors falls into the same category as that of proving/disproving the existence of God. Until & unless the deity/visitor can be produced, it is not possible and all argument is rendered futile. |
Filth, you better rephrase that or it sounds like Jurassic Park would have to become reality in order to demonstrate that velociraptors really existed!
If enough evidence of alien visitation existed, it would be as substantial proof of aliens as dinosaur tracks and bones are proof of their ancient existence! Such alien evidence has never been found, or if it has, it most certainly has been so well concealed or destroyed that it might as well never have existed. I don't know, and it doesn't matter, speculation along those lines is not productive. My agnosticism is this: If such evidence does appear some day, I will not be surprised. Neither would I be surprised, if such evidence does not exist and consequently never surfaces!
I certainly agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! Several hundred tons of dinosaur remains cannot be dismissed!
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Having thought about it, I'll let the phrasing stand. After all, as you've mentioned, there is no evidence in support of this guy
nor this one
beyond lame and often hilarius apologetics that can make one wonder what those people smoke. There is, however, a plethoria of evidence in favor of this one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 05:48:15 [Permalink]
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bng said:
Be on notice, however, Dude-O, that your sometimes less than perfect syntax and spelling had better be pretty damn perfect from now on, or it ain't gonna' go publically unnoticed! Gauntlet thrown!
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Hey, you accused me of being unread/ignorant. Just makin' a point.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 08:13:39 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| Hey, you accused me of being unread/ignorant. Just makin' a point. |
No, Dude, you're certainly not unread nor ignorant! Slightly callow and occasionally solecistic - and lazy enough to fall into the seductive habit of cacography so prevalent here. As I did! Hell, I obviously make mistakes, too - witness Khayam for Khayyam, Rubiyat for Rubaiyat. I try to proof three times before I post, but that ignorant stuff still creeps through. If I had taken the time to reread my first pass, it would have jumped out at me. I didn't and it's my bad; as you LOL generation youths say, and it hurts! But I'm damn glad you called it to my attention, and I beseech you and everyone to do the same thing every time I make a syntactic or spelling mistake.
Actually, the sixth grade level, sloppy, I-don't-give-a-damn, phonetic spelling that shows up around here is just plain laziness on the part of the perps. Everybody has a spell checker and a Webster's in their tool bar. Many are just too lazy to use them.
Some who write don't realize that every sentence is a creation, and the correctness of it's form affects the reader's perception of it's content and meaning!
English is a beautiful and difficult tongue, and it is painful to see it contorted and childishly expressed by adults!
When you're as anal as I am, it just makes you crazy! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/16/2008 : 08:30:45 [Permalink]
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"Like God, if this world I could control
Eliminating the world would be my role
I would create the world anew, whole
Such that the free soul would attain desired goal." ~~ The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 12:54:35 [Permalink]
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A couple of interesting alternative takes on Omar's quatrains, other than Fitzgerald's; but employing the same AABA rhyme pattern that Fitzgerald used and made the Rubaiyat famous in English speaking countries:
Look not above, there is no answer there;
Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;
Near is as near to God as any Far,
And Here is just the same deceit as There.
and
Did God set grapes a-growing, do you think,
And at the same time make it sin to drink?
Give thanks to Him who foreordained it thus--
Surely He loves to hear the glasses clink!
Richard Le Gallienne Translations |
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roopamapco
Spammer
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 02:44:42 [Permalink]
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Crop circles is a term used to describe patterns created by the flattening of crops such as wheat, barley, rapeseed, rye, corn, linseed and soy. The term was first used by researcher Colin Andrews to describe simple circles he was researching. Since 1990 the circles evolved into complex geometries, but by then the term had stuck.
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Roopa
Link removed for Spam violation.
Kil |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 11:58:51 [Permalink]
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Looking at those crop circle photos on the first page, I think it's clear these things are works of art. What makes them particularly beautiful & interesting are their most peculiar characteristics:
#1. The artist(s) works in secret, with secret techniques, with the intent to mislead the public as to who or what created them.
#2. They intentionally can only be appreciated from high altitude.
#3. They are made of living things - specifically farmed fields - and are therefore temporary and can only be done in agricultural areas.
#4. In addition to tweeking human aesthetic appreciation, they also generate genuine fear and paranoia.
Some future Art History 101 is going to have a chapter devoted to these things. |
-Chaloobi
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 15:54:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Looking at those crop circle photos on the first page, I think it's clear these things are works of art. What makes them particularly beautiful & interesting are their most peculiar characteristics:
#1. The artist(s) works in secret, with secret techniques, with the intent to mislead the public as to who or what created them.
#2. They intentionally can only be appreciated from high altitude.
#3. They are made of living things - specifically farmed fields - and are therefore temporary and can only be done in agricultural areas.
#4. In addition to tweeking human aesthetic appreciation, they also generate genuine fear and paranoia.
Some future Art History 101 is going to have a chapter devoted to these things.
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Wouldn't surprise me if some artbooks already have.
Then again, the artsy folks are often more attracted to the woowoo, so they might still believe crop circles are not made by humans. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 16:49:45 [Permalink]
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chaloobi.....
For a fascinating insight into the "crop circles as art" concept, here is an excerpt from the website of circlemakers.com:
'The great thing about art,' the critic John McEwan mused a few years ago, 'is that no one can define it, even if we all know vaguely what it means.' McEwan, who was writing in the crop circles enthusiasts' journal 'The Cerealogist,' asked that the circles be admitted to this vague realm of art, since 'whoever or whatever made them is an artist of genius'.
As someone who considers himself an ordinary bloke, I can seldom be bothered to argue with the pronouncements of art critics, but at the time McEwen's argument appeared in print, in the early summer of 1991, a part of my mind was inclined to rebel against the notion of crop circles as a form of artistic achievement. The phenomenon, thought tainted by occasional hoaxing, seemed fundamentally 'genuine'. To equate it with art, however abstract and benign the intended equation, was to undermine its mystery, its resonant signification of something unknown. Art was for artists and for human, overt artistry. Crop circles, and related anomalies such as unidentified flying objects, belonged to scientists and the realm of objectivity. My own 'scientific' chauvinism, ironically, was mirrored in the mainstream art world, where, according to a disappointed McEwen, the circles 'have met with scepticism rather than rejoicing. They should have been the object of an exhibition by now...' |
For a different perspective on the subject of crop circles, take a look at this: from cropcircleresearch.com Crop circles are one of the most profound and mysterious phenomena of the modern age. Are they a communication from extra-terrestrials? Evidence of other dimensions or a catalyst to advancing our way of thinking?
Governments have discussed them and then sought to confuse and misinform the populace through their control and manipulation of the popular media.
The military have endangered life and safety in order to investigate and monitor crop formations, yet they deny involvement.
Hollywood has sought to manipulate the truth and credibility of scientific evidence and facts, yet film goers become ever more intrigued.
Hoaxers have sought to deceive, confuse and muddy research waters, in the same way that computer virus writers seek attention and attempt to contaminate data.
Some crop circles are hoaxed. Some are not. We research those that are not!
This web site strives to shatter orthodox scientific arrogance, inform and educate the public, present scientific evidence and confirm that humanity is on the brink of amazing discovery and awareness. We do not seek to impose views or opinions but endeavour to share impartial and scientifically researched findings and theories in order to inspire people to carry out their own investigations and continue uncovering what 'the powers that be' would prefer lay hidden.
We have a huge archive of research articles, indexed into category or research area. If you're looking for research on a specific aspect of the phenomenon or particular crop circle, please feel free to contact us, as we have a huge amount of data still to computerise and add to the web site. |
Serious debunking of Crop Circle Research dotcom is obviously needed!
... Lay on, Macduffs, And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough!' ...!!!
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 08/18/2008 16:54:06 |
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Crop circles again......
