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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2008 : 13:39:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
It implies that people are judged on their personal worth not their belief system and I like that better than a system were Jeffery Dahmer is going to heaven instead of Gandhi or Carl Sagan...
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Skepticality Show host Derek thinks differently about Gandhi. Check out one of the earliest pod-casts of Skepticality for the scoop. (Scroll down to the bottom of the page, third from the end)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 18:45:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by bngbuck
You would rather you or "people" cease existence than go to hell? If the latter, why shouldn't naughty folks like me that say "fuck God", go to Hell? I have cursed, profaned, and blasphemed; surely I deserve to rot in Hell for an eternity, don't I? Or do I? |
You and I both deserve to go to hell.
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I would expect nothing less from a loving, merciful, personal God. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 20:05:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by bngbuck
You would rather you or "people" cease existence than go to hell? If the latter, why shouldn't naughty folks like me that say "fuck God", go to Hell? I have cursed, profaned, and blasphemed; surely I deserve to rot in Hell for an eternity, don't I? Or do I? |
You and I both deserve to go to hell.
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I would expect nothing less from a loving, merciful, personal God.
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You forgot just. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 09:34:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Apparently, in your case, there is some sort of aversion to the sound, inferred meaning, or extended connotation of certain words or phrases that disturbs you. Can't you see, Robb that; as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so also is meaning in the ear of the auditor? And when your eye reads the written word, your mind "hears" the word spoken. |
Words put together have meaning that is not always the sum of its parts. The word "screw" and "you" are not offensive to most. Put them together and "screw you" may be offensive to some.
| The only rules for a writer are to use words that communicate - both meaning and mood! Anything goes, including neologism, foreign words, profanity, polysyllabics that require a dictionary, nonsense, quotation, slang and the King's English! I would far rather offend or disturb, than I would wish to miscommunicate! |
This is nice to say but this is not the way our culture relates to each other in real relationships.
| I never said I was offended. |
But you were |
How do you know? I said I was not offended and I did not lie. I thought mind reading was debunked here?
| Why not tell why you became a Christian? |
I will tell you if you really want to know. Just PM me.
| How else would I discover that you are married to the mother of your children and have been in the navy? If you hugged your wife and told her that she was a terrible mother and wife with a twinkle in your eye and levity in your voice, (as I do frequently with my wife), she would not be hurt, she would giggle! |
You assume my wife is like yours. People are different. My wife may react differently. Why say that instead of saying your a good mother, using positive words instead of negative words. And yes people percieve certain words as negative and positive.
| What basis do you have to say that believing in a fairy tale is wrong? |
Six years of academic study and a long lifetime of observation. |
So you base believing in fairly tales is wrong because you have reasoned and thought and your brain has come to this conclusion. Why is that valid for me?
| Believing a fairy tale is delusionary behavior and can easily lead to enforced isolation from society. It is indeed a very bad road to go down! Believing in fairy tales, as you appear to do along with most Christians, is reasonably harmless, depending upon how much your actions are directed by your illusions. A few centuries ago, the Christian overseers of the Inquisition certainly transformed a fairy tale into a horror story, as are the perverters of Islam doing today in the middle east. The damage done by delusion is directly proportional to where the deluded is - on a continuum of irrationality ranging from idle fancy all the way to hallucination! |
What do you base that killing others because of religious conviction wrong. And if you come to that conclusion why should I adhere to your convictions if we are all here becasue of natural processes. It was by natural processes that my brain was created, then how can you say that my belief in God is wrong if I have no choice but to believe because thats the way the atoms in my brain were combined by natural processes. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 10:49:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Robb.....
| So do you agree with the state laws? |
Yes, largely. Education of the very young is a serious, important undertaking, and, with few exceptions, should not be practiced by amateurs! |
I agree. This is part o fthe reason our children are in public school. Where we disagree is that I think it is the parents choice how to educate.
| Parents are also free to teach their kids to be greedy, and malevolent, and socially irresponsible, and murderous and rapacious. And you say "so be it"? |
Come on, how many parents teach their children to murder and rape? As for teaching them greed etc. that is their choice.
There is also the question about what basis you have to say that rape and murder is wrong.
| All I ask is that you answer my questions instead of dancing around like Fred Astaire! I answer yours, how about reciprocation? |
This is a tactic taken here frequently. If you do not like the answers given then just unfairly say I am dodging them intentionally. I am answering yiour questions as honestly as I can.
| From the day the're born! Children need to learn an enormous number of basic living skills and life information from their parents, but the most useful single thing a parent can teach a child is how to think, not how to swallow the pronunciations of those that simply want to control him, use him, and later extract his money in the form of tithes! |
Some want the money. Most do not. There is no one at my church and most churches getting rich off of christians.
My kindergardener is told in school that the moon revolves around the sun. She believes it because the teacher says so. Should we wait until she is old enough to understand the science and math behind such a claim?| If she is being told that the moon's primary orbit is around the sun, you should correct both her and the teacher. If the teacher is referring to the fact that both the moon and the Earth revolve around the sun, it may be too complicated a concept for her age. |
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Not too complicated to comprehend, but too complicated to explain in a scientific way.
But if you meant to say that she is being taught that the moon revolves around the Earth, of course you should not wait until she can understand basic astronomy! That the moon revolves around the Earth is a demonstrable fact, not opinion or dogma!
The story of Jesus is a hell of a long way from being a demonstrable fact, as is the question of the existence of God! I defy you to prove otherwise! There are photographs proving the moon revolves around the Earth! To teach a kindergartener that there is a God, is to teach an unprovable opinion, not a fact! |
They also teach in school how it happened to be that the moon revolves around the earth without it being demonstratable.
| You and I both deserve to go to hell. |
Oh, fuck!, Robb That deserves me calling you dumb as a sack of hammers!
1. There is no Hell. Prove to me there is! |
Science does not allow for the possibility of hell. To prove it in a way you would accept is not possible.
| 2. Even if there was, why would you deserve to go there? I thought Jesus saved your sorry ass! |
He did. But I still deserve to go to hell. This is basic christian theology right out of the Bible.
| 2. And if you deserve to go to ordinary Hell, why shouldn't I deserve to go to Super Hell, because I deeply and sincerely believe that your God and all the Jesus shit is a crock of christian crap, and I give everybody I talk to about the subject, that very opinion! I should be at the top of your stupid God's shit list for Hell! |
Because there is no super hell. The reality is that you and me have the same problem and cannot help ourselves out of it. I have trusted jesus to do that for me and you have not. That is the only difference between you and I in relation to what we deserve.
AGain we need a different thread to discuss why faith is not just wishful thinking.| I said I was ready. But why don't you answer the paradoxes I have posed to you about "faith" either disproving your belief or being superstition? Is it because you can't? |
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Start a thread. It is you that wants to know. If I start a thread about faith it will be considered evangelism here.
Originally posted by bngbuck
I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead.
How are you certain? It's my stupid faith in reason and rationality, just like your stupid faith in superstition and irrationality! Do you think we both could be wrong?
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Yes, but we both cannot be right. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 12:30:07 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
Thank you for your replies. I respect your response to my comments and questions. Many persons of faith tend to ignore or run away from rational secular inquistion. This is cowardice and you are not a coward!
In your two most recent posts, you have made twelve statements and asked six questions. I will respond to all of the statements and attempt to answer all six of the questions you have asked me, to the best of my ability, in my next post.
But first, several questions I have asked you remain unanswered; and, if you can, I would appreciate those answers:| I What argument can you give for not letting a child's mind mature to an age of reason and significant education before compelling a belief system that is controversial, to say the least? |
II Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for.....
I hope that that I am much smarter, better educated, and much more correct on the matters we have been discussing here than you are! In fact, I am sure of these things! So does that make them fact? If so, you must change your opinions. If not, what good is faith if it does not represent fact? Is it not just superstition? |
III ....."and certain of what we do not see."
I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead. Does my "faith" make such events false? If so, you should stop believing them. If not, faith doesn't work and it is a stupid waste of time! |
IV It is the parents descision and not anybody elses.
Not if the parents are wrong! Some crazies would raise their children to kill! Do you favor that? Suicide bombers? Read the newspapers! |
Answers to these questions bear directly on the formulation of my responses to the comments and questions in your last two posts! |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 13:02:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Robb.....
| I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead. Does my "faith" make such events false? If so, you should stop believing them. If not, faith doesn't work and it is a stupid waste of time! |
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Can you clarify this statement. I don't think I understand what you are asking.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2008 : 00:19:02 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
| Can you clarify this statement. I don't think I understand what you are asking. |
You need to put it into context.
Let's take it from the top:bng first wrote:
What exactly, Robb, will you teach your children about "faith"? Can you define "Faith", for starters? |
Robb answered:
I don't have to. Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." |
Then bng wrote:
I hope that that I am much smarter, better educated, and much more correct on the matters we have been discussing here than you are! In fact, I am sure of these things! So does that make them fact? If so, you must change your opinions. If not, what good is faith if it does not represent fact? Is it not just superstition?
I have never seen Jesus but I am certain that he was not of virgin birth and did not ressurect from the dead. Does my "faith" make such events false? If so, you should stop believing them. If not, faith doesn't work and it is a stupid waste of time! |
I merely transposed the exact words from Hebrews 11.1 into a little word trap to demonstrate that "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" can be understood to deny faith instead of affirming it. Faith, unsubstantiated by evidence, is irrational! Irrational belief can be very destructive!
Comprende? |
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Sally Kern continues her campaign....
