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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2008 : 03:13:34
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Like good whiskey, it all just keeps getting better'n better as it ages, doesn't it? Now we discover that viviporous birth dates clear back to the Devonian Period with the fossil of this attractive, little placoderm:
This is an artist's reconstruction of the 385 myo specimen. For a somewhat more detailed account, go here.
As might be expected, some of our favorite Creationarians, having wiped the drool from their chins, are already howling apologetics about it in the persons of one David Catchpoole and our old friend, Jonathon Sarfati: In dramatic fashion, Nature journal drew attention to the researchers' paper3 with the headline ‘The oldest pregnant mum'4—but, as we shall see, ascribing such an identity to this placoderm fossil named after Sir David Attenborough5 is misguided, as the evidence actually fits with biblical history, not uniformitarian evolutionary theory.
First, consider the high degree of preservation of this specimen (and other ‘Gogo fish' fossils), consistent with it having been buried rapidly under multiple layers of sediment (as per the Genesis 6–9 Flood account):
‘remarkably well-preserved fish from the Devonian period'4
‘remarkably preserved in three dimensions'3
‘“Gogo fish are three-dimensional, uncrushed, perfect specimens—as if they died yesterday,” says Long.'4 (Paleontologist John Long, Museum Victoria, Australia) [Emphasis added.]
‘Soft tissues, including muscle and nerve structures, have been reported in Gogo specimens'4,6,7 [Emphasis added.]
‘the [Materpiscis attenboroughi] fish was giving birth to live young when it died, and shows evidence of an umbilical cord still attached to the offspring'2 [Emphasis added.]
‘intra-uterine embryo connected by a permineralized umbilical cord'3 [Emphasis added.]
‘the first maternal feeding structures preserved in any fossil ever found'5
All of which speak indeed of having been buried quickly and deeply—not the slow-and-gradual processes so often emphasized in uniformitarian-based evolution textbooks. So these fish would date from the Genesis Flood only around 4,500 years ago, not the claimed millions of years.
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Well, it's not much less coherent than the norm, I suppose, although the implication that the unfortunate animal could not have been buried quickly in the Devonian, but would have done in the Flood  shows too big a hurry to get the blather out there. Also, they are doing no more than repeating themselves, ad nauseum all over again, showing a profound lack of imagination. Hell, I could do better than that and I don't have a doctorate.
Sir David's unwed mom, incidently, was related to the dread Dunkleosteous.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 05/30/2008 03:15:42
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 08:08:04 [Permalink]
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| It just amazes me how many things the flood explains if you are inclined to ignore the lack of evidence for a flood to begin with. The creationists have to torture every bit of evidence to fit so narrow a view with things like kinds and the flood that I am beginning to believe that they are certifiable, and not simply ignorant and wrong. I used to be a little more more generous in the way I saw them, but no, they are just fucking nuts... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2008 : 10:17:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
It just amazes me how many things the flood explains if you are inclined to ignore the lack of evidence for a flood to begin with. The creationists have to torture every bit of evidence to fit so narrow a view with things like kinds and the flood that I am beginning to believe that they are certifiable, and not simply ignorant and wrong. I used to be a little more more generous in the way I saw them, but no, they are just fucking nuts...
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Of course, and it's nothing more than a dangelee on the tired, old Goddidit non-argument. I too, have become less tolerent.
But little Ms. Fish here opens up some very interesting questions (Creationists hate questions). Fer 'xample, just exactly how old is sexual intercourse and viviperous birth? She was certainly not the first, appearing on the earth like an image of Jesus in a truck-stop flapjack. Doubtless we can safely add X-millions of years to the time line. Also, she was a placoderm, a pretty diverse group of fishes and the undisputed rulers of their seas. What percentage of them were viviperous and how closely are they related to sharks & rays, many but not all viviperous as well? As are the guppies in your fishtank, indeed! 
These and a ton of other questions will not be asked, much less answered, by the likes of Ham, Sarfati, Dembski, Wells the Moonie, DaveScot & O'Leary, Johnson, Morris, Looy, Wieland, nor any of the rest of the eye-blink geology floggers. They have their story and by gum, they're a'stickin' to it!
But d'ya wanna hear the funny part? Ok, heh, they've got the gall to accuse us of telling just-so stories!
It is to laugh.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/30/2008 10:22:00 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 11:56:50 [Permalink]
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Sexual intercourse is different from viviparity, though, chicken do the first but not the second; as do several crustaceans.
I guess it goes like that:
External fecondation -> Internal fecondation (increase the chance of fertilization; decrease the volume of sperm necessary and, probably, reduce the risk of penetration of the egg by pathogens) -> Viviparity
And these lines has probably been travelled several times independently. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 15:34:50 [Permalink]
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Answers in Gibberish again has nothing: If a fossil was found in sediment, it must have been buried in Noah's Flood. That's the whole of their argument, aside from hand-waving phrases like "All of which speak indeed of having been buried quickly and deeply..."
Indeed?
Too bad Ham and his laughable crowd of liars and screwballs haven't yet been given that treatment.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 16:33:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Sexual intercourse is different from viviparity, though, chicken do the first but not the second; as do several crustaceans.
I guess it goes like that:
External fecondation -> Internal fecondation (increase the chance of fertilization; decrease the volume of sperm necessary and, probably, reduce the risk of penetration of the egg by pathogens) -> Viviparity
And these lines has probably been travelled several times independently.
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Add to the list all birds, most reptiles and most fish. The breeding strategies of the fish are the most diverse unless you include arthropods; then it can get a tetch weird.
Intercourse is always the precursor in fertilization of viviparous vertebrates. In oviparous vertebrates other than fish, it is the same. The question is: when did the guys start buying show tickets, and lying seductively to the ladies? Well before our fossil lived I'd guess, conceivably in the Cambrian.
We'll never know but I'd love to get at least a hint.
Edit: Fixed image. It's not the one I wanted, which wouldn't work, but it'll do. Scorps were some of the first creatures to come ashore, back around the time of A. materpicis, give or take a few mil.
I also cleaned up the speling.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/31/2008 03:02:21 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 08:53:11 [Permalink]
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Interesting stuff.
I would like to mention the monogenean gyrodactylus.
Not only is it viviparous; but the embryo developing inside is also already pregnant and there is a second generation embryo developing inside this first generation embryo. And people worry about pregnant teenagers! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 09:11:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Answers in Gibberish again has nothing: If a fossil was found in sediment, it must have been buried in Noah's Flood. That's the whole of their argument, aside from hand-waving phrases like "All of which speak indeed of having been buried quickly and deeply..."
Indeed? |
Indeed. Dead animals that aren't buried, or aren't buried quickly, get eaten by other animals. Dead animals that aren't buried deeply get dug up and eaten by other animals.
That's the really silly thing: AiG says the same thing that the paleontologists say. AiG just demands that it be a global flood, while the paleontologists are fine with local floods, of the sort that we see all the time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 19:21:11 [Permalink]
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A Great, Big, Fat Flood is the only way that geological science can be reconciled with Biblical literalism. But floods of varying intensity happen all the time and there's probably one happening somewhere even as we speak. Also I would think that tsunamis could be looked at as floods.
But consider: if the Flood had actually happened, what would that fossil record look like? Well, I'll tell ya: it would look like a colossal train wreck except it would also involve all of the vehicular traffic of the world. Figuratively speaking, of course.
There would be no order to the record. Fossils of trees would be tangled with the disarticulated skeletons of everything from Dimetrodon to Diplodocus, to Dugong, not to mention those species that lived when there were no trees. It would be so helter-skelter that identifying and describing a particular species would be extraordinarily difficult. But such is not the case, as we all know. The fossil record is as orderly as the pages of a book; a well-written book. And that writing gets clearer and more concise, the more we study it.
This little placoderm has shown us that we are not so far removed from our 'primitive' roots as we might think.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 22:08:16 [Permalink]
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| Not to mention heavier metal object would sink quicker and have ended-up at the bottom and human skeletton would permeate the whole record. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2008 : 10:32:25 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....| I also cleaned up the speling. |
Linguistically, you're a prunce!
Seriously, Filth, Dave, Simon, Mooner, Kil, all you guys with interest in Noah and his zoo.
What do you guys think the real reason was for the apologists/manipulators who originally dreamed up the Flood myth, to concoct this complicated fairy tale? What was the political reasoning behind a piece of propaganda designed to control the emotions and reasoning of the body politic of that era? What exactly did the ancient Rovian political advisors of the time have in mind in dreaming up the myth of the Deluge? Any thoughts from anybody? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2008 : 12:10:51 [Permalink]
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You've hit on it; it's political. The Flood yarn was concieved in understandable ignorance by ancient priests, who held the real power among their peoples. Tales of magic were one way that they kept that power. The story lives today, supported by the unfathomable ignorance fostered by the modern day equivelent of those priests, to their own political and fiscial enhacement.
Example: Ham's ridiculous midway show had some 400,000 visitors in it's first year and an expansion is planned as soon as he can bilk his contributers a for little more cash (nothing will come out of his pocket). And thus, his position will become more effective among the believers, perhaps someday to the point of swaying political nominations and even elections, as do other, more famous, evangelical ignoramuses.
Did you never wonder why they are so determined to get prayer and ultimatly the Bible into our public schools? Well, now you know.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 08:11:42 [Permalink]
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AiG does indeed have something to say about it, third article down.
"One paleontologist, commenting on the find, called the fish “most primitive”—despite the reported “remarkably advanced” biology of the fish. Hence we have a window into the contradictions of the evolutionist's mind: since the fossil record “cannot” lie, primitive and modern can be juxtaposed when an otherwise advanced specimen is found deep in the fossil record. This is much the same as the ooh-ing and aah-ing that occurs when an “ancient” fossil is found to be still living today. Notice, though, that the accuracy of the fossil record or the truth of the ever-plastic evolutionary story is never questioned, no matter how astonishing the claims; instead, evolutionists just push the appearance of “modern” features deeper and deeper into the fossil record."
Evidently, these boneheads haven't bothered to consider that this (our) reproductive system just might not be "modern" at all. It certainly has been around a long time; a lot longer than any ridiculous 6,000 years.
And scientists are always delighted to find a so-called "living fossils." These too, provide answers to questions and support the ToE by their very form and function.
Hey Ham; you gotta do better'n this!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 03:01:38 [Permalink]
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Filth.....
Why a flood? There was no hope of being saved on the Ark, only room for the animals and Noah's kinfolk - apparently incest of some sort was to be the order of the day when they toddled down from Ararat.
But the special significance of a Flood was supposed to scare extra shekels out of the hoi polloi? Why a Flood which you couldn't escape?
The first, morning, showing of the Rapture, nailing everybody but a bunch of giraffes and elephants and an old fart with a big beard? The matinee's gonna be fire instead of water? And the evening show, just one gawdawful huge explosion? How many fucking times can you destroy the same Earth?
Be very, very scared of the Terrorists! Be very, very, scared of the Flood! Sure, political manipulation for monetary and power gain!
But why specifically a flood? I don't know. Any guesses?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 04:06:02 [Permalink]
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| But why specifically a flood? I don't know. Any guesses? |
Back when that nonsense was concieved, a flood was just about the biggest & worst, disaster imaginable. Fire and all the rest of it could be escaped, even with some possesions in tow, but rapidly rising water could not. An entire commumity could be drowned in hours or even minutes, as we have seen all too recently in the Big Easy. The holy men of the time simply took advantage of a perfectly natural fear.
Kinda nice to see a little logic in with the tripe, isn't it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:31:01 [Permalink]
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I think that the flood comes from a couple of facts:
-First of; floods did happen. Between Tsunamis and very bas storm (like Katrina); floods are almost common. Moreover, the changes in water level of the moving on the coast (and sand dunes); the fact that building build too close from the coast will slide down (several WWII bunkers are now submerged at high tides) make that it is was not rare to meet building under water; once again, this can suggest a flood like event.
There also have been the flood of the Baltic sea; while how fast did the event happen is still subject to controversy, it seems natural that people would have remembered that the land now covered by water used to be plains...
Indeed, stories of flood event are part of the cultural baggage of many cultures through the world.
If the Hebrews did not have their own, they might have acquired a flood story from the Babylonian. cultures, either through contacts or during their captivity in Babylon.
-The story of a global flood also explain the presence of fossils on top of mountain. We now have an explanation, but it would certainly have puzzled the ancient people and it is logical for them to theorize that the Tsunamis they remember from 20 years ago happened in the past, except even worse (global).
-There must have been a reason for this flood to happen... probably the same reason as to with any natural catastrophes. God did it, to punish mankind.
-This would raise the question about how land animals survive such a global flood... What goes onto water? Boats! So people and animals must have been on a boat and survived this way.
-So somebody build a boat and put couple of every animal on it... Probably somebody warned by God in advance, which ties-up nicely with the moralistic story about the origin of the flood and gives a great story. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Attenborough's mother fish.....
