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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2002 : 21:49:46
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I have watched the news about what is going on in Israel, and have come to one conclusion:
Get Arafat and Sharon off the peace process and get some people serious about peace on the negotiation table.
Before some wonder if I have a screw loose in my head (and I might), look at the facts of the matter.
Arafat and Sharon have been bickering among themselves for 20+ years, and are using their factions to continue their stupid feud.
They claim to do it to protect their people, and I find that to be a steaming pile of BS.
They fight over their "turf," and the people on both sides of the conflict pay the price, simply because these two rat bastards want to fight it out among themselves.
They want to help their people. Then I say let cooler heads get in negotiations, and have them step out.
Sorry about the rant.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2002 : 22:21:46 [Permalink]
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You know, with Sharon's history if you put him right next to Arafat it would be hard to say who was more guilty of terrorism. The Israeli army has, from what I have gathered from many sources just watch the news, behaved badly. I don't think either side has the moral high ground. I also don't think the deal Arafat was offered a couple of years ago was as good as some have tried to make it sound. The Israelis fear the return of the refugees because it would end the Jewish state but the jewish state only exists because of the ethnic cleansing in 1948. It's not hard to see why the Arab world doesn't want to recognize Israel.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 04:11:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have watched the news about what is going on in Israel, and have come to one conclusion:
Get Arafat and Sharon off the peace process and get some people serious about peace on the negotiation table.
Before some wonder if I have a screw loose in my head (and I might), look at the facts of the matter.
Arafat and Sharon have been bickering among themselves for 20+ years, and are using their factions to continue their stupid feud.
They claim to do it to protect their people, and I find that to be a steaming pile of BS.
They fight over their "turf," and the people on both sides of the conflict pay the price, simply because these two rat bastards want to fight it out among themselves.
They want to help their people. Then I say let cooler heads get in negotiations, and have them step out.
I have an idea! Put them both in a Celebrity Deathmatch! That way, they can kill each other however they wish.  
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Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine* |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 04:09:56 [Permalink]
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I must admit my heart sank as soon as Likurd (I belive that's the name of the Israeli right-wing party) regained power a couple of yeras ago. Until that point things didn't seem to be going too badly, but within weeks Israelis were once again appropriating West Bank land for their "settlements". Arafat has no chance of "controlling" his people when faced with the likes of Sharon.
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 06:11:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Until that point things didn't seem to be going too badly,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I gathered when it was going on was that when Clinton had Barak and Arafat together, they pretty much offered Arafat everything he asked for, but he still turned it down.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 08:42:12 [Permalink]
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Almost? The big one was left out: Jeruselum and then there are all those settlements that are continually being built. Israel was wrong to build those in the first place. A big reason for the settlements is that some Israelis cling to that quaint notion that God gave them the land so they go move there thinking it's there's anyway and that if they are there they'll never have to leave. I don't think they aill ever have real peace in that area unless the settlements are removed and Jeruselum is given back. It's easy to sit back and say "Oh that offer was good enough" if it's not your land that's being settled on.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 08:59:45 [Permalink]
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I don't know Kaneda, I don't think that these two are really to blame. Pick up a copy of the OT and look at Exodus. Except that Moses and Josuha didn't have tanks and Cobra gun-ships it's the same argument between the same people. The Jews claimed to have lived there some time in the past and don't take kindly to the folks who are there in the present.
Everybody has god on their side.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 09:18:11 [Permalink]
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So basically, it is another spat over religion...and yet, at the same time, it brands them as hypocrites:
"Love thy neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill." And it is the religious zealots who are the first ones to violate these...
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 09:37:22 [Permalink]
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What criteria do we use to say that a certain region of land belongs to a certain group of people?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 09:42:03 [Permalink]
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The criteria used is often who has the weapons to keep it. That worked against Native Americans, the Palestinians and any other society that has ever lived.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 10:32:13 [Permalink]
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What I was getting at was that you said this:
quote:
if it's not your land that's being settled on.
implying that you believe that Israelies are settling on Palestinian land. On what basis do you claim that this is Palestinian land?
(FYI, I'm not claiming it's not, I'm just curious about your opinion, since you seem to be pro-Palestinian, and anti-Israeli)
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 04/15/2002 10:33:37 |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 11:36:22 [Permalink]
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Ya know, since these two boys can't play nicely, then neither one should get the land. LET'S NUKE IT!!! Either that, or both Arafat and Sharon should go to their rooms and not come out until they have thought about what they have done and are ready to apologize to each other and to the other's people for being complete and total jerk-faced brats about the whole thing. Especially Arafat.
And that's final.
Anybody have that arming code to the nuke? I lost my copy when I moved...
 *raspberry*
________________________
Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine*
Edited by - James on 04/15/2002 11:39:33 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 14:20:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I was getting at was that you said this:
quote:
if it's not your land that's being settled on.
implying that you believe that Israelies are settling on Palestinian land. On what basis do you claim that this is Palestinian land?
(FYI, I'm not claiming it's not, I'm just curious about your opinion, since you seem to be pro-Palestinian, and anti-Israeli)
Check this map for how Israel's borders have changed: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/israel.htm
I think it's worth noting that Israel attacked first in the 1967 war and not the other way around. yes, troops were massed on their borders but Israel delivered the first blow.
I think that Israelis living on land and in homes of palestinians driving out since 1948 are thieves in the same way that someone would be a thief if they drove you from your home. Or are you implying that if someone came with a gun and told you to leave that the new tenants get the house because they had the gun?
I am not totally anti-Israel nor do I think the Palestinians have all the good on their side but I do object the the US backing of Israel no matter what. Did you notice how Benjamin Netanyahu was invited to spew his rhetoric before Congress a few days ago? I think it's time for a Palestinian leader to have a go now. This taking of sides really bothers me because the Arab world hates the US more and more over this and helped lead to the events of 9/11 in a big way. or at least that's my opinion. I would just rather see us stop funding Israel's military but to be fair I would do the same for the rest of the countries in the region.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2002 : 05:22:16 [Permalink]
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I have to agree with Atomic on this one. The claims of the country of Israel being the Jewish homeland are a bit unsubstantiated. That two kings ruled a part of the area thousands of years ago, (with the only evidence that I know of being theological in nature), and that this is the land and the time promised by God is a bit of a stretch.
And, didn't the Brittish finally allow the Zionists to go to the area out of frustration? Let's face it, the Jews of today are more European than than Middle Eastern.
Perhaps, the Palestinians had little or no autonomous rule in the past three thousand years, but that does not detract from the fact that they were there. I can imagine myself in the same situation as many Palestinians. I imagine myself subsistence farming on the same patch of land as my ancestors. Then, I am told that I must leave my home, and will be paid a small amount for my trouble. Problem is--I don't want to go! Soldiers come, and my family is removed. Now, we have no place to go, and are relocated in a 'refugee camp', and people of another religion, probably recently arrived from Eastern Europe, are put on my land in newly built government housing with all the comforts of the day.
In the meantime, the outskirts my 'refugee camp' are constantly patrolled by soldiers, who often shout some of the most hateful expletives they can summon at me. I may or may not be granted papers to travel outside a certain area to look for work. If I do find work in the city, my travel papers may be revoked or ignored at a moment's notice. So, out of work, I may sit around pondering the disparity and the primitive conditions that I live in. I may ponder the the dismal future of my children. And, in this pondering, there would be little chance that I would blame myself for my situation, and, therefore, pull myself up by my boot straps.
Instead, I think that I would be strapping on my combat boots, and my fatigues, and getting myself a gun.
As far as strapping on a bomb, I could not imagine that, but I don't live in those conditions, either.
I would, also, not wish to live in daily fear of being killed in the grocery store, or some other place, by some lunatic brain washed into strapping a bomb on.
I wish there were an easy answer, because I'm really tired of these guys fighting over the same damned god.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 10:52:03 [Permalink]
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Did anyone notice how Bush called Sharon a "man of peace?"
You know, with Bush sometimes it's hard to tell if he really is that stupid or it's just more blind support of whatever Israel does. I thought it was common knowledge that the only reason Sharon is Prime Minister is because he is not a man of peace. Just more ammo for the Bush is the wrong guy for the job argument. It becomes more and more obvious why Arab nations hate the US. And in his War on terrorism Bush is, at least to me, making things worse!
It is also becoming clear from what I have been reading that a massacre did in fact take place in Jenin and it is quite obvious that non-combatants were targeted. That much was clear at the beginning. It's just sick.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:16:39 [Permalink]
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Israel was given to Jews in Europe and the US after WW II as Palestine was a British protectorate. The Arab nations never accepted this country suddenly being placed right where the Palestinians used to live, and with the prime reason to let the British keep an eye on the Suez channel.
After it became too costly for the Brits to support Israel, the US stepped in instead. And has vetoed quite a lot of UN resolutions against Israel ever since
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
And here a list of UN resolutions against Israel. Note those that condemns Israel for not following UN resolutions.
Res 515 (July 29, 82): Demanded Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow in food.
Today's news sound a lot like this.
I was horrified to see “The butcher from Lebanon” elected prime-minister in Israel. I was amazed he could even run, as he was convicted as being responsible for the slaughter in the refugee-camp in 1982.
There can be no peace in the region, before Israel withdraws from the occupied Palestinian land. I've always wondered why people here in DK, who fought the Nazi-occupation during WW II are called freedom-fighters, while Palestinians who fight the Israeli occupation are called terrorists and militias.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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